Question about Older Snub-Nosed Revolvers?

[gvf]

Had a question about older snub-nosed revolvers – with the “cowboy"-type hilt/grip, like my 60’s era Colt Detective and Colt Cobra as an example.

Think I read somewhere that the reason for this style was that it was usual for snubs to be shot Single Action back then, and the curved and narrow grip allowed the gun to roll-up, like SA revolvers do, the shooter cocking the hammer for the next shot as the gun pivoted back down and level.

Anyone know anything about this?


Thanks

 

[gvf]

deleted

 

[SaxonPig]

I don't know what you mean by "cowboy style grip."

S&W revolvers traditionally came with two differest grip frames; square butt and round butt.

Square butt:




Round butt:




Some Colt DA revolvers also came it what was described as a round butt configuration but to me rhe difference was much more subtle and I often can't even see the difference without a side-by-side comparison whereas the S&W shapes are instantly recognizable.

Generally on S&Ws the round butt was used on guns with short barrels meant for concealment as they hide a little better under a jacket. However, in the early years (like before 1930) many S&Ws with longer barrels were offered with RB frames and in recent years in seems that most models come with RBs as standard, even the big guns.

I doubt the grips were shaped to facilitate SA shooting. Yes, unfortunately many cops practiced and maybe even qualified by cocking the hammers on their guns which is bad practice as that's not how they will shoot when it counts.

Am I still missing what you are asking?

 

[Dr.Rob]

He's talking about the gap between the trigger guard and grip frame being kept 'open' with the wood grips of the 50's 60's I think.

Modern rubber grips fill that gap.

Pre WW2, Colt's DA revolvers had an even larger gap, and often shooters would build up grips or buy a "T" grip to fill that gap.

It's more about trying to make the best "STOCK" grip/gap that fits MOST people than 'copying' the style of cowboy guns.

Besides, for that 'roll' to work that you are describing you need smooth grips of wood, horn or ivory.

 

[David E]

DA guns are not designed to "roll up" during recoil when fired single action.

In the thread, "You Don't See These Everyday," there are pics of an 1877 Colt Lightning/Thunderer. It has a "recoil shoulder" at the top of the backstrap to prevent the gun from rolling up in the hand.

This has been understood for over 100 years, now.

 

[Oyeboten]

I do not believe that anyone familiar and accustomed, would anticipate any need for shooting Double Action Revolvers, in Single Action mode.


Once one is used to a given Revolver's Double Action, one knows where one is as for where/when the Hammer will fall, and, if one wishes, one pauses ever so slightly just before that point, for deciding a liesured Aim.


And, no Hand Gun, far as I know, is ever supposed to roll back when fired, since doing so would require one establish a new grasp, and then a new sight picture, and the time that the re-establishing of these would take, between Shots, can get you killed.

 

[Jim K]

Perhaps the reference is to the "birds head" type grip, so called because of a fancied resemblance to a parrot's beak. Those do allow the gun to "roll" in the hand, though not especially from design.

The "hump" on most DA revolver stocks was not to keep the gun from rolling in the hand, but to allow greater purchase for pulling the trigger, something not necessary in a SA gun.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

one pauses ever so slightly just before that point, for deciding a liesured Aim.

Well, if one wanted to hit anything at long range, one would shoot a DA revolver SA.
I'm talking coyotes or deer at 100 yards or further, or gongs at 300 yards or more. You don't see very many people shooting DA at those distances and hitting anything.

I never saw an NRA Bullseye shooter use a K-38 Masterpiece DA for score either! They even made some of them SA only.

No handgun is supposed to roll up in the grip you say?
Look at a Colt or Remington of any model, percussion or cartridge, or a Ruger Blackhawk SA.

That grip was, in fact, supposed to roll up in the hand during recoil so you could cock the hammer with your thumb for the next shot quickly & easily.

The designers found out very early that that disn't work for DA guns, and changed the grip design to lock the gun in your hand.

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Snubbies were designed for concealment. Hence small grips and rounded butts.

If you do a bit of shooting with these guns, with full charge loads, you'll get your knuckle rapped by the trigger guard. The simplest solution for this is the Tyler T-grip, which positions the hand differently.

 

[gvf]

No handgun is supposed to roll up in the grip you say?
Look at a Colt or Remington of any model, percussion or cartridge, or a Ruger Blackhawk SA.
That grip was, in fact, supposed to roll up in the hand during recoil so you could cock the hammer with your thumb for the next shot quickly & easily.

Yes, I think as RCMODEL states, the article I read mentions this in reference to 50-60s snubs, and I know the easiest way to shoot a Ruger Blackhawk I owned was to allow this roll-up, shooting one-handed: made for fast accurate shots.

I'm not suggesting you should shoot older snubs in Self-Defense in this way, I don't (though I do shoot one-handed a lot); I'm just interested in the history of it is all.
Thanks

 

[rcmodel]

But if you look at any Colt or S&W DA snub-nose, of any age, they all have humps on the top of the grip to keep the grip from rolling up when fired.

Single-Actions don't have humps!

rc

 

[Brian Dale]

I do not believe that anyone familiar and accustomed, would anticipate any need for shooting Double Action Revolvers, in Single Action mode.

Animals and gongs have been mentioned. In addition, police officers were sometimes faced with the duty and the need to shoot felons at distances much longer than the distances of self-defense shootings involving ordinary citizens. That's why they were required to qualify with their revolvers at distances of up to fifty yards, even when they carried Detective Specials and Chief's Specials. There were no SWAT teams to call on back in the old days, and not always enough time to go and get a rifle. Sometimes all an officer had available was the piece that he was carrying.

I'm not suggesting that it happened every week, only that it could and did occur, and law enforcement agencies were aware of that.

 

[Oyeboten]

(Oyeboten )...

one pauses ever so slightly just before that point, for deciding a liesured Aim.

( rcmodel )

Well, if one wanted to hit anything at long range, one would shoot a DA revolver SA.
I'm talking coyotes or deer at 100 yards or further, or gongs at 300 yards or more. You don't see very many people shooting DA at those distances and hitting anything.

I never saw an NRA Bullseye shooter use a K-38 Masterpiece DA for score either! They even made some of them SA only.

Hi rc,


Of course, the liability of generalizations, are not only the inevitable exceptions, but, the sometimes very incomplete subjective narrowing of view they are framed in...such as my prior post shows only too well..!


Lol...


I had in mind the ordinary distances, or ordinary Shooting...


And, I had in mind, how relatively few people use Double-Action for acurate Shooting, and or, do not imagine it possible...when in fact, it is not only possible, but, far more effective when intending to deliver multiple shots quicly and accurately.



Granted, yes, for really long distance, in aSlow-Fire mode, one would elect the Single Action mode for one's Double-Action Revolver.


But, anyone who has come to evolve a familiariy and second-nature with their DA Revolver, and the cadance of firing and of geting back on Target as the Hammer is falling, if 50 yards or less, would probably not abandon DA, to favor SA...unless in a Slow Fire event of some sort.

No handgun is supposed to roll up in the grip you say?

This is maybe a little less than clear for me.


The relatively little SA type Revolver shooting as I have done, I do not recall having to re-establish my Grip, for each shot, anyway...if that is what we are considering here.

Look at a Colt or Remington of any model, percussion or cartridge, or a Ruger Blackhawk SA.

That grip was, in fact, supposed to roll up in the hand during recoil so you could cock the hammer with your thumb for the next shot quickly & easily.

The designers found out very early that that disn't work for DA guns, and changed the grip design to lock the gun in your hand.

rc

Well...I don't remember the Pistol 'rolling up'...so, I'll have to wait till I may again be shooting a Colt SAA or similar, to get a feel for what this is about.


But, if one has to re-establish a new or fresh grasp for every shot, merely in order o cock the Revolver, it does sound a little inconvenient, especially if one is seeking to be returning fire in a tense situation...


I was shooting an early re-pro of a Colt Navy, in the 1960s and early '70s, and, I shot it a lot, always one handed. Possibly, retaining a steady grip by cocking it using the thumb of my free hand...I don't remember how I was cocking it, only, I recall no re-establishing of my grip for every round...but without one to hold and point with now, it's hard to say...


Interesting though!


Phil

 

[gvf]

But, if one has to re-establish a new or fresh grasp for every shot, merely in order o cock the Revolver, it does sound a little inconvenient, especially if one is seeking to be returning fire in a tense situation...

With my Ruger Blackhawk (45 LC) the gun rolled up and I let it move my hand and wrist with it - the gun didn't shift in my hand in other words. So I maintained my grip, but because I was cocking the hammer as the gun/hand/wrist lowered back to target, the next shot was ready to go.

This is from an article by Ayoob

 

[Oyeboten]

Gi gvf,




What you say makes sense to me.


Possibly...the phrase then would be about a rolling aspect to the recoil, absorbed or managed by a firm enough grasp...in which the Pistol and one's Hand both 'roll' together as one...


Rather than 'The Pistol rolling back in the Hand...' - ?


Well...one of these days I'll get into some SAA or Cap and Ball Colt shooting, and I will be able to understand this better.



Snubby-wise, one of the most natural-pointing, and easy to shoot DA and rapidly while keeping on Target, for me, is an old S & W M&P .38 Special I have.


I'd posted this in the 'May Target' or whatever it was alled Thread..so, since it was handy, I'll put it here also for the Snubbie-DA Thread conversation.


No 'Tyler' or other Grip-augmentation, plain Stocks...no hint of it giving a bruised knuckle from the rear of the Bow.


After 20 years of hiatus, this Target was the result of a little rapid fire session, five rounds one-hand, five rounds two hand, @ 10 long paces from the Target.





Certainly not great...maybe not even 'good'...but, considering I have not shot two boxes worth of ammo in 20 years, and had never shot this Gun before but for a couple rounds to test function when I got it, doing this rapid fire, in the wind, I'm satisfied this would do, if called on.


The old M & P is vastly more comfortable to shoot than my J-Frame .38 is.


So...can I imagine any situation where I would elect to be firing this in Single Action Mode?

Maybe...if useing a Sand Bag as a rest...just for fun, for 50 Yards...I'd try it.

But for anything else, or anything defensive or related, it'd be DA.

 

[Jim Watson]

The all DA approach to revolver shooting is fairly modern. By the late 1970s, nearly everybody was shooting all DA in PPC, even to the 50 yard line, but it had not always been that way. Gil Hebard's Pistol Shooter's Treasury has two articles on the PPC, one in favor of all DA, one recommending SA at 50 yards, DA closer.

Even the famous Fitz mutilated revolvers had the top of the hammer checkered so the gun could be shot SA with a little trigger manipulation to get it started back.