Question for those trained in long range target shooting with a Barrett

[nachosgrande]

I've got a couple questions for anyone that has any experience with long range shooting. A buddy was just watching the Future Weapons episode on the Barrett m107 (basically an 82a1) and now wants one because he heard that it's made a kill in Afganistan at a distance of a mile and a half. He thinks it's reasonable to think you could hit your target on most tries at that distance with this gun. I tried to convince him that even the most skilled marksmen would hit a target that size maybe one time in a hundred at that distance. My first question is, who's right, and what influences come into play at that kind of distance? My second question is where on earth is a range that would allow you to shoot at that distance? The longest range within an hour of my house is only 100 yards. I'd buy one today if I had access to a range like that. What could be more fun than shooting at plates all day at that kind of distance.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think if you can fire in to a 1 inch group at 100 yards, that's still more than a 20 inch froup at that range. That's probably enough to hit somewhere on a human torso, but 1 MOA from the prone is very good shooting.

what influences come into play at that kind of distance?

At that distance, I'd imagine the wind would really mess up your aim

 

[TedP]

I recently read a book about "snipers" (Trigger Men). It recounted the story about the 1.5 mile kill. It was a Canadian team (if it is the same one) and it took more than one shot to hit the target. Not only that, but I believe the actual hit was an extremity.

 

[Owen]

shots past 1200 yards are more luck than anything else, and that's with a precision weapon.

IME, The M107 is a 3-5 MOA weapon.

3 MOA at 1 mile (1760 yards) is a 52" group. That's without even considering wind-drift

 

[HorseSoldier]

My second question is where on earth is a range that would allow you to shoot at that distance? The longest range within an hour of my house is only 100 yards. I'd buy one today if I had access to a range like that. What could be more fun than shooting at plates all day at that kind of distance.

That's actually a really big PITA even on the military side of things. The Raufoss ammo that's preferred for use in the Barrett has high explosive filler, so you can only shoot it on dud producing ranges. You can't just wander around on dud producing ranges to set up targets for unknown distance shoots and such, so targetry is usually limited to whatever junk Range Control towed out onto the range thirty years ago to rust into oblivion.

The training alternative in the system is WW2-vintage AP and API ammunition, which you can use more flexibly, range wise, but which does not deliver particularly great accuracy.

 

[Freelance Tax Collector]

That shot you mention wasn't done with a Barrett. It was done with a McMillan TAC50 and a Leupy 16x by those Canadians. To give you an idea on the more intended purpose of the M107, the reason the Marine Corps refers to it as a SASR (special application scoped rifle), rather than a "sniper rifle", is because it won't hold under a minute with ball, or I suspect anything else we shoot through it. The recoil operated design isn't conducive to accuracy. Therefor, we use it for anti-material application such as EOD and specialized missions like destroying equipment or barrier penetration.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

IME, The M107 is a 3-5 MOA weapon.

In Barrett's estimation, it is a 1-1.5 MOA weapon and the M82A1 that it replaced is more like a 2 MOA, with military ball. Of course, that is just what they taught us at the Barrett Armorers and Long Range Ballistics class at the Whittington about 3 years ago.

shots past 1200 yards are more luck than anything else, and that's with a precision weapon.

Then I have seen some very lucky shooters who just happen to be very good shooters.

 

[woodybrighton]

unless he's spent a lot of range time and is a very good shot he will be cursing the Barrett before to long or an aw50 or any .50cal rifle for that matter.
most military snipers have spotters and if not on operations get on the range at least 3 or 4 times a week even with the military s ability to waste time thats 4 hours plus of range practice.
On top of there expensive training course that they were selected for.
that said military sniping and pure long range target shooting two different disciplines and your liable to come a cropper if you go up against the "perverts" at bisley who do it with iron sights
"I should'nt be so hard on yourself youngster your improve with age and practice"
muttering into beer civillians should be banned from owning rifles or making handloads etc etc etc

 

[1911 guy]

Factors that affect the shot. I'm not going to include any of the human elements, just external balistics.

distance
your first challenge is to get a ranging device accurate enough to dial in the rifle.

wind
this includes crosswinds, shifting winds, winds different at your position that at the target and the unpredictable gust that comes up just as the trigger breaks.

angle
The only easy math is right here. You need your line of sight distance multiplied by the cosine of the angle. (IIRC)

temperature
Affects air density, thus velocity and drag at long range.

humidity
Ditto

elevation
Same song as the last two.

And to be clear, no, I've never fired a Barrett rifle. I've been near them being fired, but I've also been near nuclear weapons and I'm no physicist, either.

 

[Maelstrom]

So, to make a long story short.

Your friend heard about a WORLD RECORD shot. And so he figures since one person did it, he must be able to do it whenever he wants.

Tell your friend he may very well be able to make that shot and break the world record. He may also:

Play a 100 point game in the NBA
Grow to be 8'11"
Sit in a bathtub with 87 rattlesnakes for 45 minutes
Play Operation in 1 minute 2 seconds
or
Move a 15 metric ton building

Not to burst his bubble, but tell your friend he may want to consider setting his sights a little more reasonably. I recommend starting with a Coke can handing from a tree limb at 25 feet like the rest of us did.

 

[RX-178]

That shot in Afghanistan was also made at high altitude.

High enough altitude that the effective range of the round was extended considerably.

And even then it took the sniper 3 shots to hit the target.

 

[General Geoff]

If you're serious about getting good enough to make a 2,000+ yard shot, start reading and training.

And if you start your training with a .50BMG rifle, you'd better have deep pockets.

 

[woodybrighton]

its his cash I'm sure people would love the opportunity to buy a cheapish 2nd hand Barrett when he finds out he can't get it to do what he wants.
better yet publish the email reply he gets when he complains to the maker. I believe the owner does'nt tolerate fools as the LAPD found out

 

[LGswift]

Just a little info on the history behind the topic.

(former) Cpl. Rob Furlong 3rd PPCLI is acredited with the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat, and exceeds Carlos Hathcock's 1967 record of 2,286 m (7,500 ft) by 144 m (472 ft) shot with a modified M2.

He engaged a 3 man al-Qaeda weapons team. His first shot missed entirely, and his second shot hit the knapsack on the militant's back. The third struck the target's torso, killing him. The distance was measured as 2,430 metres (2,657 yd / 1.509 miles.

This feat is not typical for the effective range with a high first-hit probability of the employed rifle regarding non-static targets (see maximum effective range). The ambient air density in the Shah-i-Kot Valley where Corporal Furlong operated is significantly lower than at sea level due to its 2,743 meters (9,000 ft) mean elevation. This increases the maximum effective range of a high-powered sniper rifle and cartridges loaded with Hornady A-MAX [2] very-low-drag bullets like Corporal Furlong used by about 600 meters (1968 ft).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Furlong

Videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2knT8RwxKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q76G7F4dV8&feature=related

Please forgive the canadian media's mistakes (can take down an airliner), the intention was to describe it as an anti material rifle, not mainly as an antipersonal rifle.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Factors that affect the shot. I'm not going to include any of the human elements, just external balistics.

Don't forget things like the (and I hate to regurgitate anything that was mentioned in the movie "shooter) Coreolis (sp?) Effect, as well as, and more importantly, gyroscopic spin drift.

Neither of which I fully understand.

 

[627PCFan]

If memory serves me right, I think the first shot hit the guys bike frame, not a missDisabled a vehicle

 

[Owen]

Quote:
shots past 1200 yards are more luck than anything else, and that's with a precision weapon.

Then I have seen some very lucky shooters who just happen to be very good shooters

Let me modify that by saying, that military shooters, with military guns, and military ammo past 1200 yards are well into the realm of luck. From the records I have here M33 is between 1.5-2.5 MOA from test barrels under controlled conditions. Add in that the vast majority of military snipers NEVER practice beyond 800 yards, because the ranges just aren't available, and the incredible sensitivity of ammunition to wind drift at those extended ranges, a complete system is not capable of reliable first shot hits at those kinds of distances.

Fine. You know shooters that can do it regularly. They probably aren't using 1972 vintage military ball. They have an opportunity to take sighters. They've had the chance to shoot at those extended ranges. They are probably shooting at a known distance. They are probably shooting on a range they have shot on before, and have the wind patterns across the range memorized. Those aren't the conditions that snipers and sniper weapon systems are employed under.

I've seen multiple experienced SOF snipers take 10 shots to get onto a 6'x6' backer at 1200, when they had a good 1000yd zero, and 1200 yard dope from the previous day. We are talking about .300 WM here, but the problems are similar.

 

[woodybrighton]

think the new issue .338 might make a difference at least for uk snipers but still 1200 is right on the limit.
the guy if he buys a barratt is going to be disappointed.

 

[TedP]

An interesting note, from Trigger Men. Apparently the target did not know he was being shot at after the first hit. The author claims that at that distance, in the mountains, he would never hear the muzzle blast. And he would hear the projectile strike a rock, but it could sound like a rock falling or whatever.

Not sure if it is true, but it was intriguing.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Gentleman was talking about the Barrett shot:

Ranstad's Militia, The guy is a poster on ARFCOM he is in Afghanistan right now,

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=668503&page=1

The details are toward the end of the first post,

 

[rrflyer]

Correct.

2100 meters first shot kill.


I believe the insurgents buddy ran behind a rock and the .50 was used to mark the rock until choppers came in and got the other guy.