reading aljazeera: stuff for thought

Status
Not open for further replies.
>>Wikipedia: ". Kashani's radical Muslims, as well as the Tudeh Party, proved to be two of Mossadegh's key political allies" (Tudeh = Iran's communist party)

Then Wikipedia is wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

US Secretary of State Dean Acheson described Mossadegh as "essentially a rich, reactionary feudal-minded Persian," hardly your Communist Party fellow traveler.

Remember that Mossadegh helped defend Iranian sovereignty against Soviet power bluffs. While sometimes the Tudeh Party defended Mossadegh's policies vis a vis the imperialist powers, more often it attacked them bitterly. In one instance, on 15 July 1951, a Tudeh-sponsored demonstration was brutally suppressed by Mossadegh, resulting in some 100 deaths and 500 injuries.

One secret State Department reported dated 9 January 1953 stated that the major opposition to Mossadegh's government came from the Tudeh Party.

See William Blum, Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, Chapter 9, "Iran 1953: Making It Safe for the King of Kings."
 
shootinstudent,

Tell you what: the extremist Palestinians have this method of political debate with Palestinians who wish to have peace with Israel-they kill them. Not one or two or a half dozen here and there as Israeli extremists have done to some of their own moderates. The vast majority of them. Figure out a way to get the Palestinian extremists to stop killing the Palestinian moderates and then there might be someone on the Palestinian side to hold useful negotiations with.

You seem to think that Israel is the bad guy in that situation. In my view, Israel has been most restrained in its dealing with the Palestinians. The Palestinians would be howling if I had been running the IDF.

Remember how the Russians reacted when one their embassy staffers was kidnapped in Beirut back in the eighties? The Islamic militias released him PDQ, didn't they? I'd be willing to negotiate in good faith at any time. If my opponent chose military action instead, my military aim would be to make them decide that military action had been a really, really, really stupid move.
 
Figure out a way to get the Palestinian extremists to stop killing the Palestinian moderates and then there might be someone on the Palestinian side to hold useful negotiations with.

A peaceful partition, which considered the desires of the Palestinian majority, might have done that. In the present, the only way to stop the Palestinian extremists is to convince the rest of Palestine that they are liars....which isn't going to happen as long as Israel has military control over the post 67 areas, because as long as that happens, the Militants will in fact be correct when they say that Israel is sending armies to conquer Arab land. There is no getting around that issue: as long as land is seen as unjustly occupied, its inhabitants will continue to become violent. Some only attack military outposts in the occupied zones, others take the even more grossly immoral and criminal terrorist route...but neither is going to go away without some step towards ending the occupation.

You seem to think that Israel is the bad guy in that situation. In my view, Israel has been most restrained in its dealing with the Palestinians. The Palestinians would be howling if I had been running the IDF.

What would you do differently?

Remember how the Russians reacted when one their embassy staffers was kidnapped in Beirut back in the eighties? The Islamic militias released him PDQ, didn't they? I'd be willing to negotiate in good faith at any time. If my opponent chose military action instead, my military aim would be to make them decide that military action had been a really, really, really stupid move.

In the first place, it was the Jewish immigrants who chose military action, and the Palestinians tried to make that rebellion a stupid move and failed. As a result, there were reprisals on both sides that have never ended. I think it's a bad policy because of this fact.

Second, the Russians are a great example....just look at how successful they've been in scaring people into submission. Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Georgia all came out willing to negotiate the Russian invasion of their lands with open arms because the Russians were really violent, and spared no scruples in attacking the insurgents and terrorists. Oh wait, I might be wrong on that....I'm pretty sure all three did nothing but fight every last Russian incursion to the death, and in Chechnya it's still happening. What have the Russians gotten themselves in return for occupying Kabul and levelling Grozny? Millions of people who hate Russia, terrorism, and rebellion. If the Russians, who are not exactly known for respecting the bounds of human decency in warfare, can't stop anti-Russian violence by military action alone, what makes you think the Israelis or the US are ever going to?

I want to make clear that I do agree that the Palestinian "leaders" like Hamas are criminal, and should be punished for all terrorist attacks they've committed. I just don't think they're ever going to go away until we let the rest of the Arab world know that we are willing to give them a better deal, and that they'll have our support and real consideration when they take the risks they'll need to in order to establish their own democracies and root out terrorism.

As long as the US and Israel deny that there's anything wrong with the occupation in the first place, what're the odds Arabs will believe us when we say we'll help them get rid of the terrorists and let them form their own governments?
 
shootinstudent:
A peaceful partition, which considered the desires of the Palestinian majority
A peaceful partition...yeah that should work. Especially when the desires of the Palestinian majority seems to be summed up in one word: "Kill the Jews!" The Palestinians are not going to do anything other that sit around, collect Euro-cash, UN dollars and wire together belt bombs. After all, that is what they have chosen to do for the last two generations.
 
That article or essay was written by Jason Miller, a very left wing 'blogger' so to speak.

Which means, in essence, that it doesn't hold much credibility and simply "repeats" the same, tired, old mantras of the ultra left wingers.


Most of it is so inaccurate that it would take a long time to respond, and it's old news...and tiresome.


I would go to Victor Hanson's website and read many of his articles. He is much smarter than me and he writes much better.
 
Victor Davis Hanson?

He's a very rightwing 'blogger' so to speak.

Which means, in essence, that it doesn't hold much credibility and simply "repeats" the same, tired, old mantras of the ultra right wingers.


Most of it is so inaccurate that it would take a long time to respond, and it's old news...and tiresome.
 
Sorry, the Palestinians extremists were already killing Palestinian moderates at that time.

Yep, over the Israeli illegal immigration and rebellion problem. And if the rest of the Palestinians weren't busy trying to stop the illegal immigrants from taking over their country, they might've been able to concentrate on eliminating the radicals. But they never got a crack at it.

Shermac,

Especially when the desires of the Palestinian majority seems to be summed up in one word: "Kill the Jews!"

You should read the UN security council speech by the Palestinian rep, Jamal Husseini, that Byron Quick quoted from above. The citation in his quote is correct, and if you read his speech, you'll see what I meant....true, the Palestinians did not want a partition either, because they felt that the land didn't belong to Britain in the first place (so Britain couldn't give it away), but what they asked for was for a truce, an arms importation ban, and an immigration ban (for both sides) to be honored so that they could settle the matter diplomatically. It's actually a quite reasonable position, especially when you compare it to the garbage that Hamas and Jihad have come up with today.
 
From #41 in this thread:
"It's the difference between the US occupying baghdad to install a new government, and the US moving the Senate and House and President over to Baghdad, along with a few million american transplants to set up shop and turn Iraq into "New Texas", the 51st state."

Similar to the acquisition of the 50th state...

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.
 
response to shoooting

you said in response to my post that "in 944, virtually no governments will be around... we'll see what happens then".

but, shooting, you can't argue that palestinians have the greater right to land because they've been on it for 1000 years (after the jews, and what not people) and then argue that the israelis are a condemnable state because they have started precisely that period of, for lack of a better word, probation that you point to as support for palestine's claim.

my point there is that land is but land. when god (or whatever you believe in) made this earth, he did not say, "this land is for you chinese people (although just what the chinese would look like or be i don't know)", "this land is for you algonquins", "this land is for you inuit freezing your butts off"... etc.

AFAIK, the british controlled palestine. they carved it up along with the allied powers to create israel. therefore israel is a state. so what if palestinians lived there? yesterday palestine, today israel.

now let's say the palestinians don't like this. FINE! go to war. WHICH IS ALSO OKAY. so they attack israel - get their butts whupped - STILL OKAY - and israel does what the british did before them, seize land (and they probably had more "right" than the brits). STILL OKAY.

but - BUT - now people are crying, "the israelis have illegally siezed property!!" whats so illegal about it? the UN says all this crap about whats legal, what's illegal. AFAIK, by the time the UN ever does anything, TONS of people have already died, damage has been done, etc. the UN doesn't keep the peace so much as react after the fact. and, its decisions are mainly politcal, not "moral".

FUTHER - even the crying and accusations are OKAY. it's part of political action. personally, even the corresponding guerilla attacks are OK. palestine wants to fight, that's their choice. I think that they might want to choose targets other than civilians because it makes them look like blood thirsty monsters, but that's war.

....

Just don't expect me to cry tears for the poor downtrodden Palestinians who started a war they couldn't finish and yet persist on making their own lives more and more miserable.

what they insist on doing - firing rockets after ceding of gaza, attacks as soon as israel relaxes military law - is plain and simple, stupid. stupid stupid stupid stupid. they need to gain the affection of the world, and although they do a great job of showing how oppressed they are, every time they blow up a marketplace or bus that sympathy dissapates.

people like matis are NOT the majority. the majority of the world would like to believe that palestinians are people "just like us". (not that i think you're loony matis, just that you're more extreme.. well you know.) but the PLAs are making it very hard to do that.

i like to think that great movement leaders like king and ghandi have come to the same conclusion - as long as you keep causing suffering - even in retaliation, PEOPLE WILL RESIST SUPPORTING YOU.

...

oh, and matis.. sure the chinese and others have money too.. but you see, the chinese are 1.7 billion and growing.. you see what i mean? it's like saying that the catholic church has far more money that the episcopalians or mormons.. but then you think about how the fat pie slices...

isreal IMHO needs to embark on a MAJOR political war campaign. they need to showcase themselves as a people bending over backwards to help the palestinians, to show that the the palestinians (hamas, etc) are not worthy of sympathy. maybe build parks, greenhouses (again!), etc for the palestinians. if they burn them down, put it on video and release it.

of course, the palestinians could do the same.

but the truth is, i think...

that these leaders who fight wars like to keep fighting wars, and don't want peace.
 
AFAIK, the british controlled palestine. they carved it up along with the allied powers to create israel. therefore israel is a state. so what if palestinians lived there? yesterday palestine, today israel.

The British carved it up without the consent of the people who lived there. And yes, I did agree above several times that there's no justification for destroying all of Israel. But lots of land that Israel occupies (ie, everywhere where there is a "settlement") is still inhabited overwhelmingly by Arabs who absolutely do not consent to Israeli rule there. The issue isn't just the land, it's the consent of the people who are on it.

now let's say the palestinians don't like this. FINE! go to war. WHICH IS ALSO OKAY. so they attack israel - get their butts whupped - STILL OKAY - and israel does what the british did before them, seize land (and they probably had more "right" than the brits). STILL OKAY.

Israel started both the 1948 and the 1967 wars. The British did not annex the land, and never intended to. Not okay, by the Geneva conventions or by UN resolutions on the subject. If it's true that conquest always "makes things okay", then I guess every Russian and Nazi conquest of another country was "okay", because the inhabitants of the land didn't consent. That's an injustice.

but - BUT - now people are crying, "the israelis have illegally siezed property!!" whats so illegal about it? the UN says all this crap about whats legal, what's illegal. AFAIK, by the time the UN ever does anything, TONS of people have already died, damage has been done, etc. the UN doesn't keep the peace so much as react after the fact. and, its decisions are mainly politcal, not "moral".

You're right that the UN has been largely ineffective, but this doesn't change above. The question this thread addressed was: Why are people like aljazeera being believed in the Arab world? Answer: because their land was illegaly seized, and very few people in the west will recognize any problem with said seizure. I don't know about you, but if China decided to send advance units of immigrants, and then declared San Francisco Chinese territory, I'd be furious. I'd be even more furious if the Chinese claimed a legitimate right to rule based on some religious idea that China should rule the pacific, or even if they were Chinese rebels who said they needed safety from Chinese communist oppressors. Either way, a land grab with no democratic support at all is going to leave a sour taste in the mouths of the people who rightly inhabited it.


FUTHER - even the crying and accusations are OKAY. it's part of political action. personally, even the corresponding guerilla attacks are OK. palestine wants to fight, that's their choice. I think that they might want to choose targets other than civilians because it makes them look like blood thirsty monsters, but that's war.

In my opinion, you do have a consistent response, but personally I believe war should be limited if possible, and I think that maintaining a modicum of justice in government will help to do that. Which is why I support something like the original UN partition plan. I also think all attacks on civillians are immoral and, although it doesn't matter to me, I think they are ineffective. Just a difference of opinion here, but I do see what you're saying.

isreal IMHO needs to embark on a MAJOR political war campaign. they need to showcase themselves as a people bending over backwards to help the palestinians, to show that the the palestinians (hamas, etc) are not worthy of sympathy. maybe build parks, greenhouses (again!), etc for the palestinians. if they burn them down, put it on video and release it.

I couldn't agree more if I tried. I don't think there's a better way to fully discredit the terrorist gangs that are in charge of large sections of Palestine, and I think that when their lots improve, the Palestinian people will be much more receptive to working with the Israelis on a plan for self-government without employing violence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top