remington model pre 11
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gpb
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I believe that Remington started selling what would become the Model 11 in 1905. I think it may have been licensed from Browning in Belgium. However, I think Remington renegotiated the contract with Browning and renamed the gun the Remington Model 11 in 1911.
From the Remington company site they reference the Model 11 as starting production in 1905. I'm not sure what they called it, but it wasn't called the Model 11 until 1911.
Remington Model 11 history link
http://www.remington.com/products/archived/shotguns/autoloading/model-11.aspx
I hope someone with more expertise and knowledge can clarify the history.
This would do better in the shotgun section. maybe a moderator can move it.
From the Remington company site they reference the Model 11 as starting production in 1905. I'm not sure what they called it, but it wasn't called the Model 11 until 1911.
Remington Model 11 history link
http://www.remington.com/products/archived/shotguns/autoloading/model-11.aspx
I hope someone with more expertise and knowledge can clarify the history.
This would do better in the shotgun section. maybe a moderator can move it.
USAF_Vet
Member
I've always heard the pre-model 11 guns as Remington autoloading shotguns. I have one from 1910 on hold at my LGS.
What I'd like to know is whether the design of the pre-11 is the same as, not just similar to, the A-5. I'm going to be replacing the stock set for something a little less crack prone (104 year old wood) like the Ramline synthetic set.
I know there are some differences between the M11 and the A5, where does the pre-11 fall?
What I'd like to know is whether the design of the pre-11 is the same as, not just similar to, the A-5. I'm going to be replacing the stock set for something a little less crack prone (104 year old wood) like the Ramline synthetic set.
I know there are some differences between the M11 and the A5, where does the pre-11 fall?
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WestKentucky
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My understanding is that they are the same gun with very few differences. One change I know of on at least some of the guns from the pre11 days was that there was no bolt handle on some, but there is a knurled part of the barrel. To load you would put the butt or barrel on your toe or on the ground and push the barrel back into the receiver to load the first shell. It can be done on the hip but it's hard to do. The one I have seen like this has been marked up a lot as it went into service with the us army. 18-ish inch barrel. Obviously this isn't a super safe way to load, especially since a lot of these were "accidentally" converted to full auto in the trenches. I would hope they would have pushed the barrel against a board or something...but I know how this one gets loaded all too often.
gpb
Member
In reply to post #5
The "no bolt handle on some, but there is a knurled part of the barrel" sounds like a Winchester 1911 SL (Self Loader). I didn't know that Remington also made one like that.
I once owned a Winchester 1911 SL. It was a very unique gun, not one of Winchesters better efforts. I need to look for some pictures of the Remington with barrel knurling, I've never seen one.
The "no bolt handle on some, but there is a knurled part of the barrel" sounds like a Winchester 1911 SL (Self Loader). I didn't know that Remington also made one like that.
I once owned a Winchester 1911 SL. It was a very unique gun, not one of Winchesters better efforts. I need to look for some pictures of the Remington with barrel knurling, I've never seen one.
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WestKentucky
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I have seen no others like it. I believe it to be very rare, but it does exist. Terrible idea. I will take a pic next time I'm at Randy's and then fight the picture doomaflotchie on here to get the pic up.
WestKentucky
Member
That charging handle is a browning patent...I need to check to make sure... But I have handled Randy's enough to know what it is, and we did the blackpowder production month thing on it. I wonder if for military they may have though it would hang up and leave the gun a bit out of battery...not sure. It may be a home built creation from a surplus gun. I'm stripping that gun down next time I see it.
Right model, wrong company. The gun with no bolt handle and a knurled barrel was the Winchester Model 1911. After Winchester failed to reach agreement with Browning on payment* for his autoloading shotgun design, Winchester had its in-house designer, T.C. Johnson, begin work on an autoloader of its own; the result was the Winchester Model 1911. Johnson was a competent engineer and a good designer, but it was his cross to bear that he had to work around Browning's patents, which included the bolt handle on an autoloading shotgun. (It was probably even more galling to realize that the patents had been drawn up by Winchester's lawyers and filed in Browning's name before the parting of the ways!)
*Browning wanted royalties of so much per gun, while Winchester wanted to flat out buy the patent as they had done previously.
Jim
*Browning wanted royalties of so much per gun, while Winchester wanted to flat out buy the patent as they had done previously.
Jim
WestKentucky
Member
I would agree to this IF we had not done the BLACKPOWDER check I this gun as well as mine when we found the scans of the serial number logs. It's how we dated his to 1906 and mine to November 1926. I do not believe I am mixed up on manufacturer, and I have handled it a lot.
The first Model 11 was called Auto Loader, I have a 1905 with an arsenal stamp on the stock. Experts claim it is a fake because they have never seen one like the one on the stock?.
It was a tuffer purchase, I received two guns for the price of one, the other was a rifle made by Ross. It was a 1905 model.
F. Guffey
It was a tuffer purchase, I received two guns for the price of one, the other was a rifle made by Ross. It was a 1905 model.
F. Guffey
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Hi, WestKentucky,
If I understand correctly, you are saying your friend has a REMINGTON autoloading shotgun with no provision for a bolt handle and with a knurled barrel. I think we would like to see good pictures of that gun as it is indeed a rare one.
Also, pictures of the Army markings would be appreciated also.
Jim
If I understand correctly, you are saying your friend has a REMINGTON autoloading shotgun with no provision for a bolt handle and with a knurled barrel. I think we would like to see good pictures of that gun as it is indeed a rare one.
Also, pictures of the Army markings would be appreciated also.
Jim
The charging handle is indeed a Browning patent, which is why Winchester used the knurled barrel as a way around it on the 1911 shotgun. However, there was no need for Remington to do such a thing on the Model 11 because it was built under license from Browning.
I too am going to remain politely skeptical about a handleless Remington semiauto shotgun until I see some pictures.
It is interesting, and in a way a bit sad, that highly competent firearms designers like T.C. Johnson, Pedersen, Searle and others were forced to labor under the shadow of John Browning, using many odd ways of doing things just to get around his patents.
Browning was what today we would call a "freelance" designer, selling his ideas to the company which would give him the best deal. Of course, Browning didn't draw up those patent applications himself. Colt, Winchester and FN were so eager to produce JMB's guns that when they bought a Browning design, they had lawyers literally working day and night to find and include patentable features. And Browning insisted that the patents be filed in his name, not the company's.
In recent days, a lot of publicity has been given to the Remington R51, a revival of the Model 51, a Pedersen design. And much has been made of its breech block, which acts as a short-stroke piston to operate the slide. A stroke of genius on the part of John P.? Yes, but he was forced to do something like that by the fact that the other John held the patent (drawn up by Colt) on an automatic pistol with the slide and breechblock in one piece! Searle's Savage design with its detachable breechblock is also considered a product of genius. But Searle had the same problem; he just solved it differently.
Jim
Browning was what today we would call a "freelance" designer, selling his ideas to the company which would give him the best deal. Of course, Browning didn't draw up those patent applications himself. Colt, Winchester and FN were so eager to produce JMB's guns that when they bought a Browning design, they had lawyers literally working day and night to find and include patentable features. And Browning insisted that the patents be filed in his name, not the company's.
In recent days, a lot of publicity has been given to the Remington R51, a revival of the Model 51, a Pedersen design. And much has been made of its breech block, which acts as a short-stroke piston to operate the slide. A stroke of genius on the part of John P.? Yes, but he was forced to do something like that by the fact that the other John held the patent (drawn up by Colt) on an automatic pistol with the slide and breechblock in one piece! Searle's Savage design with its detachable breechblock is also considered a product of genius. But Searle had the same problem; he just solved it differently.
Jim
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