Rifle Bayonets Sharpen or not? The deep question of the day!

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Most bayos won't hold an edge; they're made of soft , malleable metals so they don't snap off on the first use. Modern knife bayos are likely better, since they are field knives first and bayos second. Neither my K31, Russian SKS, nor STGW57 bayos are sharp; merely edged and pointed.

TCB
 
Thanks, Robert , for that info concerning my PATTERN 1907 bayonet for my #1 Mk III Lee-Enfield. I had forgotten all about that; the guy I bought it from over 20 years ago explained that to me and I, of course, forgot all about it. But he never told me about the date up there by the hilt. Mine's dated as Nov. 1915. Thanks for the tip. Always learnin' something new on THR.
 
I had the same training as Vern. No one ever said to sharpen bayonets. Seems to me there was a reason not to sharpen them. Slashing and cutting was not the correct use. They were for stabbing, deep penetration was not desired because of suction on the blade as you withdrew it. You did not want you weapon stuck in one guy when another 2 or more guys were attacking you. Blunt force and rapid controlled strokes were the main ideas I recall. By the time we got to actual combat I never saw a bayonet, but I was issued an M-16 usually.
 
The bayonet for my M16A1 ( 71-73) was issued sharp. Our bayonet training covered a lot of slashes, along with thrust and butt stroking. I think the idea is that nothing was ever going to make an M16 as good at bayonet fighting as an M14 or M1, in fact, I spoke with a few guys who used theirs that way and it began to break apart! So anything to fight those little devils was useful! ha Only time I ever fixed mine was in the field in Germany ( I had orders to Nam but got sent to Bavaria instead!) I was walking through the woods to go visit a buddy when I walked right into a big Sounder of Eurasian hogs, sows and pigs! Being raised around and hunted hogs I knew not to run. Being Army on training, I had no ammo either! I never fixed that bayo so fast before or since, ha. I was able to back slowly out amongst all that grunting and teeth popping of those big sows...I was glad I had the training to use it! ha
 
This blade appears to have come from the MFR with an almost edge along the forward half of the blade ... "almost" meaning that the edge is properly beveled and ready, with very little effort, to take a sharp edge.
My 1907 is the same way. Has a bevel but not "sharp".

22250,
Glad to help. I learn something new here almost everyday.
 
FM 21-150
COMBATIVES
MARCH 1969

Section 5 Knife Attack
para 91 sub para c. "....., you can slash to the left or right. ........,you can also slash in either directions."

para 94. Frontal Attack

sub para a. "The Throat. You can attack the throat with either a thrust or a slash."

sub para b. " The Stomach. Athrust combined with a slash to the stomach produces great shock."

sub para d. "The Wrist. A slash to the wrist will sever the radial artery......."

sub para e. "The Upper Arm. A slash to the upper arm just above the inside of the elbow cuts the brachial artery and causes death with in 2 minutes. (fig. 98) This artery is about one half inch below the skin surface. Unconsciousness occurs in about 15 seconds."

sub para f. "The Leg. A slash to the inside of the leg near the groin severs the arteries there and makes the leg useless."

Para95. Attack From the Rear

Sub para a. "The Kidney. .......with draw the blade, slashing as you do so,....."

sub para c. "The throat. A slash across the throat......"

sub para d. "The Subclavian Artery. ........as you withdraw the knife, slash to make the wound as large as possible."

I chose not to quote sections on the use of a bayonet while attached to a rifle as someone has opined that they need not be sharpened for such. Consider for a moment how effective any of the hand held knife attacks using the issue bayonet/knife would be with an unsharpened blade. Now consider the difference between a slash with a mounted blunt edged bayonet and a sharpened one against bare skin or lightly clothed skin.

As I wrote some units never sharpened bayonets. My company had no unsharpened bayonets.

As to the quality of bayonet steels let me say two words. no three, "Lowest bidder, MacNammara" I don't think the bayonet I have for my M-1 is "low quality" in terms of its construction. I also carried a different bayonet, an M5 A1 for years as a youth for a camp knife and still would had it not been stolen. The M7 Bayonets for the M-16 series rifle is what most folks base their bad steel and bad manufacture claims on. Some were awful right out of the wrap. A lot bore these od stirations like the cutting tools that made them had become worn in a regular pattern. Some seemed thinner and lighter than others. Some did crack at one of these stiraitions. When attempting to sharpen these monstrosities they frequently took on a saw toothed look and the tips of these resultant teeth were brittle enough to sometimes breack offThere were a few M7 bayonets floating around that had regular pre Mac Nammara M-3/4/5/6 blades of solid construction and I made sure one of those was in the sheath assigned to go with my rifle (we numbered the sheaths for arms room records rather than the actual bayonet the sheath number matched your rifle rack number).

The only good thing about the M-7 bayonet is that it caused enough fuss that the Infantry and Marines demanded a better bayonet knife. I am not saying that the M9 bayonet is the be all and end all of bayonets, but the quality is certainly better than most M7s I saw. I reviewed the Probis III design of the Buck M9 bayonet knife for the December 1987 issue of "Superguns Magazine" when I worked for Merion Riley-Foss at CFV Publishers. Not a great experience working there, but I had fun with the knife. I cut electric wire (exciting when it was charged), two strand barbed wire and chain link with the wire cutting feature, removed the butt screw from an AR15 with the screw driver, hacked some branches with it, sharpend one end and sawed the other flat to make tent stakes and then made some long that way and once imbedded in the ground sharpened the once flattened ends. I affixed the bayonet to an AR15 and AR-180 and danced about performing the old pre 1970s bayonet drill and flailed about with the newer "instinctive method" that replaced it( what instinct teaches one to effectively use a weapon?) I opened my mid after noon Doctor Pepper bottles using the bottle opener on the knife. I decided not to try to drive a nail or fence staple with the butt plate as it was a loaner. I discovered that the included Beretta mag pouch worked great for holding one of the larger Buck lock blades. I noted that the original design included a sharpening stone on the back of the sheath......odd that a bayonet would need a sharpening stone, according to some folks here abouts. The whole bayonet reminded me of a very beefed up version of the Stoner 63 bayonets which I also carried and used just long enough to decide they were more decorative than useful (except their saw did work nicely).

Anyhow if you want to leave your bayonet "as issued" feel free and collectors may well thank you in some distant future, but be aware that some atleast got sharpened by the users.

Oh to the guy with the Enfield #4 rifle spike bayonet, it was war time and the makers were in a hurry, there was also a cruciform bayonet and ia bowie style bladed one. There was a shovel with removable spade blade or pick that used a mounting that would also allow the bayonet of the #4 to be mounted on the handle to allow the bayonet to be used more like a knife. One wonders if British soldiers wanting a better shovel attached the spade blade to their rifles and plugged the barrel to use the rifle as a spade. Such devices were in use in some armies in the 1800's.

-kBob
 
I think it's amazing how many weapons of war are not honed to "perfection". It totally goes against how we envision weapon use.

I have a late friend who spent a good deal of time in Japan learning a lot of about their warfare and studying martial arts. He had told me once that the swords we think of Samurai carrying into battle were much different than the ones they carried about when not engaged in war. Many times, the war sword edges, according to him, were dulled purposely in order to make the edges more durable. Instead of cleaving an man with a clean cut of a fragile edge, they relied on more of lop that would crush through armor and sort of make mashing cut into the soft bits underneath. Of course, these were used with archery and pole arms were impractical.

If I remember correctly, this was during the time in Japan when war was a much more common thing and the Samurai had not come up with the heavily romanticized Bushido Code as they had in a relatively peaceful time.
 
I also have the No 9 Bladed Bayonet for my Enfield. I've been looking for a cruciform one to add to my collection. (I'm a completest. If I own a particular gun I just have to eventually get all the accessories for it.)
 
Kbob, we did not get training in knife fights, or bayonet as a knife. My training was as attached to the rifle. Sounds like your info is more up to date as my era is the 1960's. McNamara era. Good to know. Early in that war they did not think jets needed guns either. The dangers of an educated bureaucrat.
 
I think it's amazing how many weapons of war are not honed to "perfection". It totally goes against how we envision weapon use.

I have a late friend who spent a good deal of time in Japan learning a lot of about their warfare and studying martial arts. He had told me once that the swords we think of Samurai carrying into battle were much different than the ones they carried about when not engaged in war. Many times, the war sword edges, according to him, were dulled purposely in order to make the edges more durable. Instead of cleaving an man with a clean cut of a fragile edge, they relied on more of lop that would crush through armor and sort of make mashing cut into the soft bits underneath. Of course, these were used with archery and pole arms were impractical.

If I remember correctly, this was during the time in Japan when war was a much more common thing and the Samurai had not come up with the heavily romanticized Bushido Code as they had in a relatively peaceful time.
(slightly off-topic)
These "war swords" your friend told you about are not really the same weapon as a Samurai's katana. They were, in fact, an oversized version that were indeed used in an entirely different manner, mainly against a mounted enemy. The Samurai's katana was, in general, a finely-honed blade. There was nothing fragile at all about them. Their very design made them both hard and soft, to hold a keen edge (Ha) and yet give enough in back (Mune) to keep from breaking.

I've study and practiced Japanese swordsmanship for nearly 30 years now, many of the early years from an ex-pat Japanese sensei. There is much written material from that Warring States period of Japan's history that tells us the conditions of their swords were anything but dull, and that "lopping" and "mashing" through armor were not the primary techniques of sword battle. They had other weapons for that. The katana was designed to cut.
 
The spike is the oldest form of socket bayonet. The Russians have always used it (although now they also have a knife bayonet.)

In the Katyn Forest Massacre, the Russians executed about 22,000 Polish Prisoners of War. They tried to make it look like the Nazis had done it, but they bayoneted the Polish prisoners after they were shot, and the distinctive wounds produced by their spike bayonets gave the game away.
Not to mention the warm-weather clothing, ending dates of journals and other documents, advanced state of decay, pollen on the bodies, etc. all pointed to the period before the Nazis were there.

Of course after the war the Soviets built their official memorial to the victims of the Nazis in a tiny village named Khatyn which has the same pronunciation Katyn and is spelled the same in several languages . . . .

Mike
 
Most are not of the composition or heat treat to make a knife. They're intended to be tough instead of sharp.
 
The few modern ones that I have (ak, m16) the blades seem to nick easily. The WW2 stuff seems a lot tougher. (Or at least my Kar98k repro is certainly a 'heavy' knife.)

Old WW1 style bayonets for Enfields and Springfields are more like swords than knives.. and they were plenty sharp.
 
The Swedish bayonets for the 94-14 carbines are / were sharp right out of the wrapper.
Cavalry sabers ( from back when they were actually used) are sharp on the last 33% or so of the blade. The inner section was dull and could be grabbed by a gauntlet-ed hand for use in thrusting in close quarters like a bayonet. The blade being more of an axe or chisel angle of sharpness.

When I was on active duty I sharpened my bayonets since it was sometimes the only available field knife.
 
Rule3
I think I 'd rather be shot than stabbed with that thing

I can attest to the fact that being shot or stabbed is not something you want to happen, one stabbing actually made me weak kneed and almost pasted out from it. That was a long time ago and still don't like the thought of either.
 
I did pass out for a moment (only time I ever have) ... woke up on the ground with a hole in my leg, quickly looked for any arterial bleeding (none ... and tissue swelling was closing it nicely, thank goodness) and then got back to business. Strangely, I had no memory of getting stuck ... just immediately before & after.

Never been shot.
 
All this talk about bayonets stirred up an old memory.Kinda funny but could have been fatal.In 1962 I was in Navy radio school,Bainbridge Maryland.In an effort to avoid night watches I joined the drill team.We practiced in the afternoons after class and marched in parades on weekends.After the parade we were on liberty till monday morning.No fire watches,it was great.We carried rifles with chromed bayonets.Our most complicated manuever was the Queen Anne Salute.A line of 16 men doing a series of movements rippling down the line.One of them involved rolling the bayoneted rifle over your shoulder,then smacking the steel butt plate on the pavement while kneeling.We had a parade in the coal mining region of PA.We followed the local fire truck.It was a hot afternoon and they had iced beer in the fire truck.They passed beer to the first men in formation who took a swig and passed it back.When we got to the reviewing stand we did the salute.One sailor tilted his rifle slightly and the bayonet slid up the cheek of the next man as he kneeled,broke the chin strap and flipped his helmet off.An inch or so more and it would have been more than a scratch.
 
The Queen Anne manual of arms was certainly easier with a Springfield than with a Garand.

One variant of the salute: From right shoulder arms, roll the rifle forward, holding it by the butt and rotate it to behind the shoulder while kneeling and bringing the left hand up and across to a salute position. Twist the wrist so the sights are to the rear. (Not done with a fixed bayonet, of course.)
 
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