I have recently started reloading 30-06 ammo for my T/C Encore handgun. For some reason keep getting erratic flyers or droppers. I'm talking 10-15+ inches. Im shooting off a bench on a bag so i know its not me. I firmed it up buy buying some factory ammo and trying that. The groups werent as tight but were consistant. I use a Lee 4-hole turret press and crimp with the lee factory crimp die. I also hand weigh each charge on my lee safety scale. I use new winchester brass, federal primers, Reloader 15 powder, and Hornady 150gr sst bullets. I have tried 49gr, and 52.6gr charges. My oal is 3.229" (every once in awhile i get one that is -.003-.004). Any advise out there would be greatly appreciated.
Rookie Reloader Needs Help.
- Thread starter Kscotto7
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Sharps Shooter
Member
Howdy Kocotto7 and welcome to the forum.
First, I'd forget about the crimp. If that didn't work, I'd next try some different bullets. I think Hornady SSTs are probably pretty decent, but there's a chance you got some from a bad batch. Varying the powder charge would be the last thing I'd try. In my experience the wrong powder charge is likely to cause a larger group, not the kind of flyers you're talking about.
I agree with you in that it's probably not your gun because you're getting consistant groups with factory ammo. I just don't understand why you're crimping (factory crimp or otherwise) 30-06 cartridges to be fired in a single shot handgun. I don't think the crimp is necessary and it can't do anything but harm your accuracy. Don't get me wrong - the crimp might not be your problem, but it's not helping either.
First, I'd forget about the crimp. If that didn't work, I'd next try some different bullets. I think Hornady SSTs are probably pretty decent, but there's a chance you got some from a bad batch. Varying the powder charge would be the last thing I'd try. In my experience the wrong powder charge is likely to cause a larger group, not the kind of flyers you're talking about.
I agree with you in that it's probably not your gun because you're getting consistant groups with factory ammo. I just don't understand why you're crimping (factory crimp or otherwise) 30-06 cartridges to be fired in a single shot handgun. I don't think the crimp is necessary and it can't do anything but harm your accuracy. Don't get me wrong - the crimp might not be your problem, but it's not helping either.
Thanks for the info Sharp shooter. I really appreciate it and will give it a try. I'm new to reloading brass ammo and was only crimping because i thought i was suppose to. My understanding and thought behind it was i needed it to let the pressure build befor the bullet exited. I am loading some up your way in a few and will try at the range this week. I want to make sure i understand you first. Are you saying to just seat the bullet and put absolutely no crimp on it at all. (Roll or factory) If that is the case will the bullet move in the case if it gets bumped?
Sharps Shooter
Member
Yeah, the bullet will move in the case if it gets bumped hard enough. The thing is though, generally bottle-neck cartridges such as the 30-06 have enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place. Take for example the average 30-06 bolt action rifle such as my old M-77 Ruger. When I touch it off, it recoils and those other 3 cartridges that are still down in the magazine are slammed, bullet nose first, into the front of the magazine. If those bullets had real pointy lead noses, they don't anymore. Yet, they still aren't seated any deeper in the cases because there is enought neck tension to hold them in place.
You can check neck tension by taking one of your loaded cartridges and setting the nose of the bullet on your loading bench. Then push on the case and see if you actually can push that bullet further into the case. If it doesn't take conciderable pressure, the expander ball in your sizing die is probably too big around. You can have a machinist turn it down or get another (smaller) one from the die manufacturer.
I too have heard about needing a crimp to hold the bullet in place until the pressure builds up, and I'm not sure about it. But I think maybe it applies to revolvers, not closed breech weapons like your Thompson or most rifles. Maybe someone else with more knowledge than I can chime in. I think I've read about a firm crimp being necessary for certain powders from no other than uncle Elmer Kieth himself, so there must be something to it. I just know a crimp is not necessary for most bottleneck rifle cartridges in most situations.
You can check neck tension by taking one of your loaded cartridges and setting the nose of the bullet on your loading bench. Then push on the case and see if you actually can push that bullet further into the case. If it doesn't take conciderable pressure, the expander ball in your sizing die is probably too big around. You can have a machinist turn it down or get another (smaller) one from the die manufacturer.
I too have heard about needing a crimp to hold the bullet in place until the pressure builds up, and I'm not sure about it. But I think maybe it applies to revolvers, not closed breech weapons like your Thompson or most rifles. Maybe someone else with more knowledge than I can chime in. I think I've read about a firm crimp being necessary for certain powders from no other than uncle Elmer Kieth himself, so there must be something to it. I just know a crimp is not necessary for most bottleneck rifle cartridges in most situations.
I agree with Sharps Shooter. The crimp probably isn't required. This sounds like inconsistant powder ignition. Are you loading light loads? if so, it may be caused by the amount of powder exposed to the primer being inconsistant. Try raising the barrel of the pistol to allow the powder to settle to the base of the case and slowly lower it onto the bags. Try several groups this way and see if there is an improvement. If so, you may want rethink the charge weight.
mc223
Member
I agree with the above post on the lack of need for a crimp. You might also just remove the expander ball from the sizing Die completely. If you are only loading this ammo for the T/C, you might also back the sizing die up to just neck size. If the case came out of the chamber, it will go back in with just neck sizing. This also saves overworking of the brass which will icrease case life considerability.
Sharps Shooter
Member
Hazzard has it right – that’s a good way of determining COL with a bolt-action rifle. Although, I’m not sure how well that method would work with your Thompson single shot. The following is the method I use for determining COL and don’t worry, it sounds a lot more complicated than it is.
First, get a piece of 1/4 “ wooden dowel about 6 or 8 inches longer than your gun’s barrel. Take one of the bullets you intend to use and with your little finger, shove the bullet up in your gun’s chamber until it comes up against your rifling lands. While holding the bullet in place, put the dowel down the barrel until the dowel is resting on the nose of the bullet. With a sharp pencil, carefully make a mark around the dowel right at the end of your barrel. Now you can use the dowel to push the bullet back out (it’s probably stuck) and let the bullet fall in your hand. Next, close your gun and put the dowel back down the barrel as far as it will go. Carefully make another mark around the dowel right at the end of your barrel. Remove the dowel and as accurately as possible, measure the distance between the two marks. That’s the maximum COL for THAT bullet, with the bullet tight against the lands. I usually make the COL about .010” short of that measurement. However, you might have better results with more, or less bullet jump to the lands.
All of that said though, if I was just starting out in metallic cartridge loading, I’d use the COL for that bullet as listed in my loading manual. Experimenting with different seating depths is fun and a person can often gain a little accuracy that way. But if you’re working close to maximum pressures, you can get in trouble.
I wouldn’t be concerned with .003” or .004” differences in COL. The bullets have been rattling around loose in those plastic boxes for who knows how long and shipped over hundreds of miles. Their noses aren’t shaped exactly the same anymore, if they ever were. The differing nose shapes can make at least .003” to .004” differences in COLs for 30-06 cartridges.
As far as my pet 30-06 load goes, I use a Hornady 165-grain BTSP over 56.2-grains of IMR 4350 and a CCI LRM primer. I’ve never shot it across a chronograph, but it should be in the neighborhood of 2800fps. That load puts three bullets in an inch at 100 yards from my Ruger 77 and it’s deadly on mule deer.
First, get a piece of 1/4 “ wooden dowel about 6 or 8 inches longer than your gun’s barrel. Take one of the bullets you intend to use and with your little finger, shove the bullet up in your gun’s chamber until it comes up against your rifling lands. While holding the bullet in place, put the dowel down the barrel until the dowel is resting on the nose of the bullet. With a sharp pencil, carefully make a mark around the dowel right at the end of your barrel. Now you can use the dowel to push the bullet back out (it’s probably stuck) and let the bullet fall in your hand. Next, close your gun and put the dowel back down the barrel as far as it will go. Carefully make another mark around the dowel right at the end of your barrel. Remove the dowel and as accurately as possible, measure the distance between the two marks. That’s the maximum COL for THAT bullet, with the bullet tight against the lands. I usually make the COL about .010” short of that measurement. However, you might have better results with more, or less bullet jump to the lands.
All of that said though, if I was just starting out in metallic cartridge loading, I’d use the COL for that bullet as listed in my loading manual. Experimenting with different seating depths is fun and a person can often gain a little accuracy that way. But if you’re working close to maximum pressures, you can get in trouble.
I wouldn’t be concerned with .003” or .004” differences in COL. The bullets have been rattling around loose in those plastic boxes for who knows how long and shipped over hundreds of miles. Their noses aren’t shaped exactly the same anymore, if they ever were. The differing nose shapes can make at least .003” to .004” differences in COLs for 30-06 cartridges.
As far as my pet 30-06 load goes, I use a Hornady 165-grain BTSP over 56.2-grains of IMR 4350 and a CCI LRM primer. I’ve never shot it across a chronograph, but it should be in the neighborhood of 2800fps. That load puts three bullets in an inch at 100 yards from my Ruger 77 and it’s deadly on mule deer.
Shoney
Member
Welcome to the forum Kscotto7!!!
First, I am going to assume that your scope mounts are correctly mounted and tightened down. I agree with the others that the crimp is not necessary. I also agree with Sharp Shooter about the COL varying because of the bullet tip differences. What I do not understand is: Why did you load two loads so far apart?????
There are a lot of factors that affect accuracy. Individual rifles have individual characteristics, what works in one may not work in the other. Each rifle has it’s own set of harmonics, that will need to be discovered thru systematic trial and error. The only factor that is constant is the twist rate of your barrel. On the rifle itself, you can change the harmonics by various forms of bedding, and by the way you torque the stock at the bench. (Search this site for threads.) You can change the load configurations. And you have started that process.
Factors affecting accuracy in loading the cartridge are:
Powder (brand and charge wt), bullet (brand and grain wt), primer (brand and strength), seating depth of bullet.
Once you have chosen the powder, bullet, primer and seating depth, you change the variable of powder charge weight. Standard loading procedure for working up a load is to start at 10% below the max listed load. (You have started at very close to this with the 49gr load.) Then load 5 cartridges with the same charge weight, then in increments (some use either 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments) load 5 each of each increment, until you reach the max load. You then go to the range and carefully shoot the 5 identical loads at an individual target over a long period of time, so that the barrel does not heat up, then the next 5, and so on. Make sure you label each target correctly.
You will be able to see where the loads are headed, tightening and getting larger. Usually, but not always, the groups get smaller as you get closer to max, and then start to get bigger again. Once you see where your loads are best, you can tweek the BEST loads up and down in smaller increments.
First, I am going to assume that your scope mounts are correctly mounted and tightened down. I agree with the others that the crimp is not necessary. I also agree with Sharp Shooter about the COL varying because of the bullet tip differences. What I do not understand is: Why did you load two loads so far apart?????
There are a lot of factors that affect accuracy. Individual rifles have individual characteristics, what works in one may not work in the other. Each rifle has it’s own set of harmonics, that will need to be discovered thru systematic trial and error. The only factor that is constant is the twist rate of your barrel. On the rifle itself, you can change the harmonics by various forms of bedding, and by the way you torque the stock at the bench. (Search this site for threads.) You can change the load configurations. And you have started that process.
Factors affecting accuracy in loading the cartridge are:
Powder (brand and charge wt), bullet (brand and grain wt), primer (brand and strength), seating depth of bullet.
Once you have chosen the powder, bullet, primer and seating depth, you change the variable of powder charge weight. Standard loading procedure for working up a load is to start at 10% below the max listed load. (You have started at very close to this with the 49gr load.) Then load 5 cartridges with the same charge weight, then in increments (some use either 0.3 or 0.5 grain increments) load 5 each of each increment, until you reach the max load. You then go to the range and carefully shoot the 5 identical loads at an individual target over a long period of time, so that the barrel does not heat up, then the next 5, and so on. Make sure you label each target correctly.
You will be able to see where the loads are headed, tightening and getting larger. Usually, but not always, the groups get smaller as you get closer to max, and then start to get bigger again. Once you see where your loads are best, you can tweek the BEST loads up and down in smaller increments.
Dark Helmet
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2006
- Messages
- 101
You might try just neck sizing those cases from the factory loads you fired and reloading them otherwise the same as you did the new cases. You could be setting the shoulders back a little.
db_tanker
Member
The only thing I can add to the advice given is this...
Take out your Encore, break it open and close it. Then look at where the barrel meets the frame where the firing pin is. If you have some feeler gauges, try to see if you can slide one through there. I cannot remember what the excessive measurement is, but if you give Thompson Center a call or possibly Fox Ridge, they can tell you what it should be. I have seen this once or twice on a Contender...its due to frame stretching...you CAN hotrod this frame too much... And yes, this goes for an Encore as well...especially with that 30-06...15" eh? Put a load of H-335 in that monster and keep a fire extinguisher handy...you will start a brush fire from that flame-thrower.
Hope this helps
D
Take out your Encore, break it open and close it. Then look at where the barrel meets the frame where the firing pin is. If you have some feeler gauges, try to see if you can slide one through there. I cannot remember what the excessive measurement is, but if you give Thompson Center a call or possibly Fox Ridge, they can tell you what it should be. I have seen this once or twice on a Contender...its due to frame stretching...you CAN hotrod this frame too much... And yes, this goes for an Encore as well...especially with that 30-06...15" eh? Put a load of H-335 in that monster and keep a fire extinguisher handy...you will start a brush fire from that flame-thrower.
Hope this helps
D
I just wanted to sat a big thanks for all of you that stepped in to help this rookie out. I took alot of different tidbits from all your post. I used Sharps Shooters method of determining his col And GooseGestapo's charge info fron one of my other post and reloaded a few to take to the range tomorrow. Here is what i ended up with. If any of this looks a little odd please chime in and let me know what you think.
Federal Primer
Winchester once fired cartridges (Cleaned & resized)
53.0 Gr. of reloader 15 powder
150 Gr. Hornady SST bullet
COL: 2.288"
** On Col I had some of my cartridges end up -.004 (2.284 to 2.285) Will this make much of a difference?
Federal Primer
Winchester once fired cartridges (Cleaned & resized)
53.0 Gr. of reloader 15 powder
150 Gr. Hornady SST bullet
COL: 2.288"
** On Col I had some of my cartridges end up -.004 (2.284 to 2.285) Will this make much of a difference?
georgeduz
Member
i think it might be the lee powder scale,always buy a good scale.
sixfootunder01
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 6
Sorry, another neophite question
I have just recently started to reload,
I thought that I would keep it simple and start with the 30-30 for a lever action 150g bullet. My question is this, I thought that I read somewhere that you should not have any empty space in with the powder, I used Hodgden H4895, Lee Turret Press, hand measured the powder, after seating the bullet, I can shake the cartridge and hear the powder rattle.
Is there a better powder/ load that takes up all of the space?
I have been reading several reloading manuals, but I hate to buy all different brands of powder to experiment with without having the correct answer.
thanks
I have just recently started to reload,
I thought that I would keep it simple and start with the 30-30 for a lever action 150g bullet. My question is this, I thought that I read somewhere that you should not have any empty space in with the powder, I used Hodgden H4895, Lee Turret Press, hand measured the powder, after seating the bullet, I can shake the cartridge and hear the powder rattle.
Is there a better powder/ load that takes up all of the space?
I have been reading several reloading manuals, but I hate to buy all different brands of powder to experiment with without having the correct answer.
thanks
sixfootunder01
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 6
sorry
sorry, posted in the wrong place
sorry, posted in the wrong place
Well the results from the range are much better. 1-1/2" groups at 100 yards. I appreciate all the help. I'm going reload some more in 1/2 grain increments to see if i can tighten the group up a little more. The flyer & Dropper problems are gone.
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