S&W 29-3 Hammer/Timing Problem

[TallMikey]

Hi - - new member here, I did do a search on this before posting, and couldnt find anything like my problem - -

I recently bought a used S&W 29-3, and I have not found time yet to fire it. However, I have found time to dry-fire some snap caps, and to my great dismay the hammer is not hitting the primers, at least not every time.

Also, in a fast DA pull, the cylinder will advance too far, and get stuck. Now I dont know what to do. I'm sort of afraid to fire it, and I suppose the thing to do is just take it back to the store, but I was hoping that perhaps there was someone who might educate me here. I am a relatively new gun owner, and this is my 1st S&W.

Also, I have uploaded and attached a picture of the snap caps in question, hopefully I did it right


Thanks - Tall Mikey

 

[rcmodel]

My god!!!

You have three options.

1. Take it back and get a refund.

2. Hose it out with WD-40, and blow it out with compressed air and try again.

3. Or send it to S&W and get it fixed right.

Obviously, there is a real severe timing problem.
That could be caused by old dried oil & grease binding up the cylinder locking bolt.

Or it could be caused by Bobby Bubba the shade-tree gunsmith clipping springs and totally ruining the timing.

Of the three options, I would pick door #2 if the rest of the gun seems to be in good condition.

Then door #3, if you didn't already pay top dollar for a working gun that doesn't work and have to pay more to ship it to S&W.

BTW & NOYB: The time to stop wailing away DA on a gun that is out of time is just right immediately right after you noticed the first off center dent in the first snap-cap!
What you did to the snap-caps in the photo is all down hill for the gun from there.

rc

 

[TallMikey]

Ok. Thanks RC, at least now I know.

Does S&W offer warranty work on a 27 year old gun? Am I better off sending it to them, or just trying to get my money back? I bought this 29 almost a month ago, and while I havent fired a single round out it, would they even take it back? FYI, I dunno about 'top dollar', but I paid 650 for this one.... thanks, mike

 

[MrBorland]

My god!!!

Yeah. Yowser!

Open the cylinder and push down on the cylinder bolt - it should depress and recover easily and smoothly. Or with the cylinder open, hold the cylinder release latch back, and pull the trigger a bit. The trigger pull ought to depress and release the bolt easily & smoothly.

I agree with RC - could be crud binding the bolt somewhere, or maybe the spring's shot. Either is easy enough to fix. If you're handy, the spring swap is a do-it-yourselfer. Go here for some visuals. You'd only need to go to post #6.

 

[TallMikey]

I just dont understand how the firing pin can come through that little bitty hole at such extreme angles to cause marks like it has! I've opened the action plate and looked at the path the firing pin must take to strike the primer, and it just doesnt seem possible...

Anyway, thanks Mr Borland, that is an AWESOME set of visuals, however, I am way too much of a newbie to attempt that sort of thing myself..... would you recommend a good gunsmith cleaning, or should I just try and return it? Have I bought a "lemon"?

thanks, tall mikey

 

[MrBorland]

I just dont understand how the firing pin can come through that little bitty hole at such extreme angles to cause marks like it has! I've opened the action plate and looked at the path the firing pin must take to strike the primer, and it just doesnt seem possible...

No, it's not possible. The FP's hitting straight on - the rounds themselves aren't aligned when the firing pin hits.

When you were dry firing, were you dry firing quickly? I was assuming the cylinder bolt was sticky and didn't lock the cylinder, so it (and the rounds) overran it's normal stop position. That's why I asked about the bolt being sticky.

A sticky bolt or bad spring could certainly be the problem, but after thinking about it, the problem could also be that the FP hits early because the trigger breaks early. If that's the problem, you could need a new sear, sear spring, or maybe even a trigger.

would you recommend a good gunsmith cleaning, or should I just try and return it? Have I bought a "lemon"?

If this is its only issue, I wouldn't call it a lemon. It's likely a relatively straightforward fix by a gunsmith (if RCs cleaning recommendation doesn't fix it). You likely wanted the gun to begin with, so you'd have to balance the hassle (and cost) of fixing it against the hassle (and cost) of returning it.

 

[rcmodel]

dont understand how the firing pin can come through that little bitty hole at such extreme angles to cause marks like it has!

Because the firing pin came through the little bitty hole going exactly straight as you would surmise by looking at it.
But the cylinder was still revolving at a high rate of speed then the FP hit the snap cap.

That smeared the dent sideways before the heavy cylinder got stopped moving at a high rate of speed sideways by the firing pin hitting it.

Had you not ejected & reloaded the snap-caps several times fooling with it?

All the dents would be in a straight line to the right of the primer centerline.
Because the cylinder was rotating at a high rate of speed to the left.

rc

 

[TallMikey]

indeed, RC, and Mr Borland, yes, there was some fooling around with the snap caps, but not a lot of unloading/reloading. They're snap-caps, I just left them in and didnt bother looking at them. Not only did I not notice this for at least a day or so, the snap caps themselves are rather "loose" in the cylinders, and I think they rotate on their own, at least a little.

Mr Borland - yes, some DA dry fires were "quickly", which is when the cylinder would lock up from over-traveling, but NO, the bolt is not sticky, moves smooth and easy

Thank you both for clearing up my firing pin misconception, I never took cylinder rotation into account when thinking about that little bitty hole the FP must go through. I kept thinking that since the 29 has an articulated FP, perhaps that was where the problem lie...

In terms of SA vs DA, I would say that most dry fires were SA. My problem is that I never thought to look at the snap caps at all for about a day or so (plus I had excited friends over).... I considered buying a new set of them (for $20), and then figured it didnt matter, since I was pretty sure I had a serious issue here.

Okay, many thanks in order for you both, RC and Mr Borland, I very much appreciate the time you have afforded me..... tomorrow I work only until 1 PM or so, and I have decided that my first stop will be back at the gun store, reciept in hand..... I think this is a great gun, but for the money I spent, I expect it to function properly....wish me luck, I'll let you know how it turns out...... thanks again, tall mikey

 

[Remllez]

I sympathize with you and your timing troubles. You may have been better off bringing the revolver back sooner rather than later. I agree it could be a weak spring, sticky gummy internals or even a bent bolt. The gunshop may offer to clean it for you on their dime or even diagnose and go parts or labor with you.

However they may do nothing considering how much time has passed, or they may give you a store credit. Depends on what kinda shop they run. But after 30 days you may have inadvertently screwed the pooch so to speak and tied their hands.

Certainely is worth popping down to the store for a meeting of the minds on this one. They may make a perfect resolution that works for everyone involved, never know till you try. Good Luck!

 

[TallMikey]

Thank you Remllez, I agree, and here is my final question: How much truth do I reveal to folks at the gunstore? Do I show them the picture of the mutilated snap caps, or do I just report some cylinder overtravel? What is my best course of action for a full refund or store credit? --- mike

 

[Old Fuff]

Look at the notches in the cylinder and see if the edges are peened or burred.

The problem may be that the cylinder stop's ball (the part that sticks up inside the cylinder window and goes inside the notches in the cylinder to lock the chambers so they are concentric with the bore), isn't coming up high enough to lock the cylinder so that it skips the notch and the cylinder revolves too far. A weak spring or a mis-fit between the trigger and cylinder stop can cause the same thing. In any case it's an easy thing to fix. I wouldn't be in a big hurry to take it back and demand a refund.

 

[rcmodel]

Yea, but!

$650 bucks is more then I would want to pay for a Model 29 that had problems like that.

Unless I knew about it (which you or I would have) and expected to fix it myself, and knew how to do it, when I got home (which you or I would have)..

Easy fix or not, $650 for a Model 29 that doesn't work (and I didn't know why or how to fix it) is a little steep in my old musty gun record book!

rc

 

[Old Fuff]

I admit the price was high, but a lot depends on how badly he want's this particular gun. It's a gamble, but S&W might fix it under warrantee.

I have seen a fair number of S&W revolvers with this problem, especially in the late 1960's, early 1970's era. I remember one that had the little mousetrap cylinder stop spring in backwards. Turned it around and everything worked fine.

Anyway, he has a choice...

 

[TallMikey]

What a difference a day makes

Whew, what a difference a day makes!

I dont know if anyone is still following this thread, but here the updates, 24 hrs later:

Bought new snap caps, test fired them in SA, slow-DA, and fast-DA, and the results were predictable: all the problems lie in the fast-DA pull. SA, and slow, measured DA pulls are just fine, and I have the snap caps to prove it.

Next - to the range. Got off work early today, snuck over to the range to finally fire this bad boy, and here are the results:

1. I am in love. This gun is fantastic. And because of that, now I don't want to return it. Call me crazy as you will, but this is an awesome firearm. I have three other handguns that I bought new, and none compare to this S&W, flawed as it is.

2. Firing was fine in both SA and slow-DA. Fast-DA yielded the same results as the snap caps, and I saved all the brass in 3 boxes: SA, DA, and fast-DA. Notably, the slow DA primer strikes were dead-on, exactly centered, just as the SA's were

Final Results: with y'alls help, and an ex-military friend of mine from work, I am accepting this timing problem as a challenge. I probably did pay too much for this gun.... Supicas' Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson puts this 29-3 at about 500 (2006 edition), so perhaps the mark-up was too much, but another store in my area is selling a 29-2 for even more than mine. Also I am of the mindset that although this is my first USED handgun, I shouldnt expect perfection out of a 27 yr old revolver, so I will take this one on as learning lesson. I'm almost 2 years now as a gun owner and student, and I have learned that there is something to be learned, every single step of the way.

So first off is a good, quality cleaning, which I am going to pay to have done, since there is grease involved and I dont know how to apply grease correctly (my others dont have any grease at all....hmm)

Second, the Cylinder Stop and Cylinder Spring, as Old Fuff pointed out. The Stop definetely shows signs of wear, and the spring... who knows? A tighter spring may be all thats needed to engage the Stop in the cylinder notches. (and thank you Old Fuff, I have made a note of your "backwards-spring" incident - -good to know that that is possible)

Also yes, Old Fuff, the cylinder notches are peened, but not burred. To my inexperienced eye, they look as one might expect after 27 years of service.

And thirdly, as RCModel and Mr Borland pointed out, it could be more serious due to what "Bobby Bubba the shade-tree gunsmith " did to the gun over the years, and possible require sear spring and trigger work.

Either way, I have decided to take this on as a challenge. Education isnt free, and I have no problem with paying a decent, reasonable tuition, however you'll forgive me if I DON'T recommend the gun store that sold me this gun. They are akin to used-car salesman, in my opinion, and while I am a sucker for a pretty face and a pretty gun, I dont generally get fooled twice.

Thank you everybody - - - mike

 

[TallMikey]

Also, just for fun, here is picture of my day at the range.... I shot several targets, but this one was the keeper - - - - mike

 

[rcmodel]

A new cylinder stop spring is a $buck .69.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/sid=650/schematicsdetail/N-Frame-29-3

I would encourage you to stop the fast DA fire until you get it fixed.

You are just beating the snot out of the cylinder stop notches when it does catch occasionally now.

Disassembly:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397027

rc

 

[TallMikey]

Indeed I have, RC, and thank you for the brownells link... mike

 

[Old Fuff]

If the cylinder stop notches in the cylinder are peened the most likely reason is the ball on the cylinder stop isn't coming up far enough. This comes as no surprise to me. I suggest that if you buy a new cylinder stop spring you also get a cylinder stop at the same time. The extra expense won't break the bank, but be aware that regardless of which stop you use some fitting may be required. Time envolved = 20 to 30 minutes from start to finish.

Since you have decided to keep the revolver I'll repeat my suggestion that you return it to Smith & Wesson for a complete examination and tune-up. They may find things you are completely unaware of, and there is a chance they'll fix it under warrantee. I see no reason not to ask.

 

[BBBBill]

Please follow Old Fuff's advice. S&W should have the oportunity to fix it. There are fewer and fewer qualified S&W smiths outside the factory, and the were very few to begin with. Same with the parts for that particular generation of S&W. If you really like the gun and want to continue shooting it, don't begin your gunsmithing education on that one.

 

[45_auto]

So first off is a good, quality cleaning, which I am going to pay to have done, since there is grease involved and I dont know how to apply grease correctly .... Either way, I have decided to take this on as a challenge. Education isnt free, and I have no problem with paying a decent, reasonable tuition

If you don't have the skills and aren't confident enough to lube the thing, it's going to be quite a challenge for you to troubleshoot and repair it. The tuition is going to be very steep. At least get Kuhnhausen's S&W book before you start "fixing" on it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314178/the-s-and-w-revolver-a-shop-manual-book-by-jerry-kuhnhausen

If you're going to pay to get it lubed and repaired, you might as well send it back to S&W and let someone who knows what they're doing fix it. If it's your lucky day, they might even fix it for free.