Sabot 410 slug loads

[pcpharm]

I have searched for the following but I have been unable to find an answer to the question so I have decided to ask the question. Why not build a rifled 410/45 colt rifle barrel (24-26 inches) and fire 40 or 38 caliber bullets using muzzle loading MMP sabots for 45 caliber? I understand that the load would not be as fast as a 45 colt. However, with the higher pressure allowed for a 2.5 to 3 inch 410 barrel (12,500-13,500), compared to a 12 gauge (11,500), I would think that higher muzzle velocities could be achieved. You could place the bullet in the MMP sabot right over the powder without a shot cup. I think that 2.5 inch chamber would be sufficient. The loads would have to be pressure tested prior to firing as this is completely unknown territory. You should have some idea of powder charge ranges from current 410 shotgun reloading manuals. I currently have a 45 caliber muzzle loader and know that 180 to 200 grain 40 caliber sabotted bullets will shoot accurately and are sufficient for deer hunting. I realize that with 100 grains of 777 that the muzzle loader velocities, and chamber pressures, are higher. I have an Encore system so I would be having only the barrel built. So where is the flaw or somebody would be building and selling these for shotgun/muzzle loading hunt areas.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Apples and Oranges.
The Taurus and Smith.410/.45colt revolvers are poor shotguns and poor pistols.
Kinda neither fish nor fowl, they fill a niche. A very close range pistol, or modestly effective “snake gun”.
The oversized rifled barrel ruins the shotshell patterns, and the 2.5”-3”cylinder/chamber hampers .45Colt accuracy.

A rifled .410barrel would need to be .410”, so would need a .40cal slug (or smaller) to fit a Sabot.
My compromise which works outstanding, is to load a 4-pellet buckshot load. I use a .350” cast round ball in the bottom of the tapered .410 wad, followed by 3- 0.375” cast roundball. This is a surprisingly effective, good patterning load. I had a .410 “SnakeCharmer” I loaded a .40” 175gr TCFN in a .410 wad with a filler that was decently accurate to 25-30’. Still cut round holes...

Taurus made a 18.5” .410/.45Colt Revolver/Carbine, called the “Circuit Judge”. A friend has one. It’s decently accurate with a Lee 255gr RFN over a slightly warm load of Universal. A grandson has killed several deer with it... Good to 50yds or so.
Not sure if that’s what you had in mind...

 

[mcb]

Just shoot slugs, Brenneke silver slugs are a pretty good choice. My Winchester 9410 will do 5-shot, two-inch groups at 50 yards with them.

 

[Armored farmer]

I have often thought of trying three of my .40 cal rb(.390) dropped in my 2.5" .410 wad.
I haven't yet though.

 

[mcb]

I have often thought of trying three of my .40 cal rb(.390) dropped in my 2.5" .410 wad.
I haven't yet though.

Somewhere in my collection of 410 shot shells I have a box or two of 410 shells that are just that. Three 40 cal round balls in a 2.5 inch 410 shell. IIRC they are loaded by NobelSport. I believe they do four balls in a 3-inch shell.

 

[Armored farmer]

I'm curious, have you tried them?

 

[pcpharm]

I appreciate the discussion. I still wonder if higher velocities, compared to 12 gauge sabot slugs, could be achieved with 38 or 40 caliber bullets in MMP sabots in a 410 rifled barrel with a 2.5 inch chamber and 24-26 inch barrel? TN is a slug only state when hunting many of the draw hunts on TWRA land. Again muzzle loaders may also be used. I currently use CCS and RSS sabots for loading a 12 gauge rifled barrel Encore. I am reluctant to go to 20 gauge as reloading sabots are more limited, CCS are available but not RSS. I have used the Slugs-R-US sabots and find them limiting beyond 75 yds. To me placing a MMP sabot directly over say Blue Dot or 800x powder has some potential value. Please continue the discussion. Thanks!

 

[mcb]

I'm curious, have you tried them?

Unfortunately I have not. I shot a couple raccoons and squirrels with Sellier and Bellot's 3-pellet Triple-ought and it worked pretty well. I can't image 40 cal balls working or patterning worse but I have not had opportunity yet.

I appreciate the discussion. I still wonder if higher velocities, compared to 12 gauge sabot slugs, could be achieved with 38 or 40 caliber bullets in MMP sabots in a 410 rifled barrel with a 2.5 inch chamber and 24-26 inch barrel? TN is a slug only state when hunting many of the draw hunts on TWRA land. Again muzzle loaders may also be used. I currently use CCS and RSS sabots for loading a 12 gauge rifled barrel Encore. I am reluctant to go to 20 gauge as reloading sabots are more limited, CCS are available but not RSS. I have used the Slugs-R-US sabots and find them limiting beyond 75 yds. To me placing a MMP sabot directly over say Blue Dot or 800x powder has some potential value. Please continue the discussion. Thanks!

To make bullets work your going to need a rifled barrel and 410 rifled shotgun barrels are hard to find. Hoening Big Bore South use to make rifled 410 barrel for Encores/Contenders and some for bolt action rifles. They used .410 caliber rifled barrels with 410 shotshell chambers. They got pretty impressive ballistics but alas the company did not make it. Without a rifled barrel you are going to be better off with drag stabilized slugs rather than trying a bullet in a 410 smooth-bore.

 

[pcpharm]

Yes, I read about Hoening Big Bore South barrels for Encore, although I never had a chance to look at the ballistic results. I have spoken with MGM about a barrel and they are willing to build a custom barrel, but the price is what is making me start this discussion.

To achieve similar ballistics with what I am shooting now in pressure tested 12 gauge custom loads, I would need to be able to load 24 grains of 800x behind a 250 grain 452 bullet. I am currently achieving 1,350 with 7500 psi. That is the most accurate load. I have shot 250 grain bullets loaded with 32 grain 800x with 1,885 fps and 10,750 psi, but the accuracy is lousy. I assume at the higher pressures the sabots are deforming to much. I also note that the point of impact is 5-7 inches lower with the 32 grain loads compared to the 24 grain loads. All other components are the same, with the exception of 0.125 nitro cards deleted in the 32 grain powder charge. I am shooting are 45 caliber Collet Cup Sabots. I do not know the reason for the lower POI with the heavier (32 grain) powder loads, but I would like to know the answer, as I have seen a similar result with Blue Dot as well.

 

[Jack Ryan]

The shotgun barrels are not rated for the higher pressures.

 

[mcb]

Assuming we have a rifled 45 Caliber barrel with a 410 chamber. I do not think the extra pressure of 410 (2.5" - 12,500 psi/ 3.0" - 13,500 psi) vs that of 3/2.75 inch 12 gauge (11,500 psi) is going to make up for bore area of 12 gauge assuming we are attempting to launch similar weight projectiles. F=m a and in this case the F = bore area times pressure. So at peak pressure 13,500 psi in a .452 diameter barrel is a peak force of 2166 lbs. A peak pressure of 11,500 psi in a .730 diameter barrel is a peak force of 4813 lbs. So from a purely sabot-ed slug gun point of view I don't think 410 is ever going to have the velocity or payload mass possible to the 12 gauge slug gun.

I think the reason you don't see these rifle 410 slug gun is simply because only about half the states in the US would allow 410 slugs legally for deer. Of the states that allow it only a few of them are slug only states and that number had decrease quite a bit recently. Ohio and several other mid-western slug only states here in the past five years have started allowing straight walled rifle cartridges and that has pretty much killed off any market viability of the rifled 410 slug gun.

I always like Brenneke Silver Slugs in my Winchester 9410. Unlike conventional foster slugs the Brenneke Silver slug is made from a much harder alloy and has an attached trailing gas seal. They do not flatten out the way a tradition soft lead foster slug can and in my 24 inch 410 I was getting right at 2000 fps with that 114 gr slug. I spin shot a nice size buck with it and the slug stilled exited. 1000 ft-lbs with a hard large meplat projectile performs better than you would think when you hear it's a 410 slug as long as you keep the ranges short as it bleeds energy very quickly.

 

[pcpharm]

Thanks MCB, for the formulas and calculations that were missing from my inquiry. Yes, I now see the limitations of 410 in comparison to either the 12 or 20 gauge as a system for slugs.

I wonder if you would provide your view on my observation that as powder charge increases POI at 75 yds increases, then at higher powder charges but still below maximum charge the POI decreases. All other variables, except nitro cards as spacers, are kept the same in the loads. The decrease in POI may be up to 6 inches at 75 yds.

Thanks!