Saiga stock: Need more parts for legality?

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kcmarine

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Okay, I haven't purchased (read: given the money to my dad to buy the stuff with) either of these items, but I have been looking at Saigas lately. If and when I buy one, I will be wanting to buy a new folding, pistol grip butt stock for it. However, I don't want to drill the pins and move the trigger group to do it. So I am looking at a Russian made, drop in stock that will fit it without any modification.


However, I am wondering if this stock switch will require me to switch out any other parts to keep the rifle "BATFE kosher".

http://www.copesdist.com/ak47.htm

It should be in the bottom third of the page, with the words "FITS ALL SAIGA'S" int the catagory.

Thanks for the advice.
 
I would say you will need to add US parts to be 922R compliant. The Saigas are "sporting" rifles when imported into the country. If you add a pistol grip folder that would change it to a non sporting rifle. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
 
What kind of saiga you gonna buy,I kinda want a saiga carbine in 308 they make a 20rnd clip for it now.
compared to a springfield socom,(that's a short M1A1 like a M14)
the price ain't to bad ,You end up saving $1000 buck's with the saiga.
Now to you'r question I belive that you need 3 us part's to keep it legal.
Check to see if the folding stock is made in the U.S.
 
Nupe. Made by a fat drunken Russian woman.

I'm gonna get the 7.62x 39mm Soviet carbine. Unless, that is, I figure someone else needs the money worse than I do. And they might.
 
Full metal, actually ya need 6 parts as ya must have less than 10 foreign parts in the rifle.

if ya do the stock conversion, then ya will need to add a USA FCG as this will give ya 3 parts right off the start (hammer, disconnecter, Trigger) ya then will have to make some decisions ya can swap out the gas piston to get one more USA part so now ya only need two more, and this is the problem with the Saiga as the reciever is imported (with USA built kits the reciever gives ya one more part) and as the pistol grip cannot be swapped for American nor the stock as ya are using an imported combination this only leaves ya with Mag parts or find a USA handguard to count as a 5th part then ya could add a USA muzzle device to avoid havin to use USA Mag floor plates/followers or bodies etc... otherwise your kinda SOL for gettin the saiga legal with the Russian made folder and pistol grip both of which go against it as a "sporting rifle"
 
nope, ya add a pistol grip ya gotta play 922R numbers game, this is WHY ya don't see many useing the Russian conversion, if ya do a full conversion to AK configuration then ya can use a USA Pistol grip, USA stock, USA FCG and a USA forend to be legal or instead of the Forend a USA gas piston etc... to get the 6 USA components, but the reason they don't come with any pistol grip when imported is that puts it in the "assault" weapon class as far as the BATF is concerned......... that is the one item that automatically triggers 922R compliance no way around it other than to not have a pistol grip
 
Oh well... just gonna have to change my taste then. I'm prolly going to start looking at the 20 in. with skeletonized stock. Long rangey... wiggy.
 
[quote="kcmarine']Okay, I haven't purchased (read: given the money to my dad to buy the stuff with) either of these items, but I have been looking at Saigas lately. If and when I buy one, I will be wanting to buy a new folding, pistol grip butt stock for it. However, I don't want to drill the pins and move the trigger group to do it. So I am looking at a Russian made, drop in stock that will fit it without any modification. [/quote]

I'm not sure why you specify "Russian made", but consider this:
http://riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm

It's US made, which means you could get away with only 3 other US parts. (handguard, gas piston and trigger would be easy ones)

Also, remember that in order to use standard AK mags, you need to add a bullet guide. The other choice is to modify mags to use with the Saiga.

It's not a 5 minute job, but it's not that hard and it's worth it in the end.

Jim
 
Saiga Conversions

I suggest you visit the folks over at the Saiga Forum.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/

While it may be possible to undertake the project you envision and still get the parts count right, it's an awkward path. There is a "conventional wisdom path" to doing these conversions, and it involves moving the FCG.

There are a couple places out there that have a good reputation for doing them, but it isn't cheap.

There is much confusion about 922(r). From the ATF Site, this letter describes the ramifications of doing a build (which essentially a sporting to "AK' configuration/conversion involves)

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

The net of it, you can't have MORE THAN 10 foreign parts.

Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states—
“…(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes…..

Sorry, stating an intention to use the "Converted Configuration" for 3-Gun or Carbine Matches won't get you off the hook.

It's the FOREIGN PARTS COUNT that is the determining factor. Typically, a Saiga Conversion will involve moving the FCG, & installing a pistol grip. You can buy a US Made pistol grip, but the sporting configuration didn't have one. So...you add the US part to avoid increasing your foreign parts count, but it doesn't reduce your foreign parts count.

The FCG counts as 3-parts (hammer, trigger, disconnector). The Stock and Handguards give you an opportunity to ADD two US parts and SUBTRACT two foreign parts. If you add a muzzle brake, it better be US Made because if foreign, it would ADD to your foreign parts count.

You're in a numbers game. I recently bought a Saiga .308 which appeared to be previously converted. I was able to add:
FCG - 3 parts
Pistol Grip - 1 part US
Stock - 1 part US

And I verified that the Muzzle Brake was US Made.

That left foreign parts (I'll increment the #'s):
Receiver - 1
Barrel - 2
Trunnion - 3
Bolt - 4
Bolt Carrier - 5
Gas Piston - 6
Forearm/Handguard - 7
Magazine Body - 8
Magazine Follower - 9
Magazine Floorplate - 10

Different AK's/Saigas are considered to have different "incumbent" part counts. Without knowing which caliber you are considering, I can't tell you what your raw count will be. Most are in the 13-15 range IIRC.

Ironically, Domestically made 20-rd High Cap mag's are available for my .308 (I have some on order). So...I'm right at the legal limit for parts count with a foreign 8-rd Mag', but will have a net gain of 3 fewer foreign parts when my High Caps arrive.

It's an awkward law, and I've yet to find a credible accounting of a single person that has been charged with a 922(r) compliance violation. However, it is the law, and I won't encourage anyone to break it.

Other options (depending on caliber) is a pre-assembled bolt carrier assembly with a US Gas Piston to get a net 1 reduction in foreign parts, and there are front handguards that are US Made also.

If you have the tools, the time, or the ambition, you end up with a terrific gun. There are multiple 922(r) compliant offerings out there pre-configured as a completed rifle that you can spend anywhere from ~$300 - over $1000 depending on your budget.

Good luck!

CZ52'
 
Saiga Conversions

I suggest you visit the folks over at the Saiga Forum.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/

While it may be possible to undertake the project you envision and still get the parts count right, it's an awkward path. There is a "conventional wisdom path" to doing these conversions, and it involves moving the FCG.

There are a couple places out there that have a good reputation for doing them, but it isn't cheap.

There is much confusion about 922(r). From the ATF Site, this letter describes the ramifications of doing a build (which essentially a sporting to "AK' configuration/conversion involves)

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

The net of it, you can't have MORE THAN 10 foreign parts.

Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states—
“…(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes…..

Sorry, stating an intention to use the "Converted Configuration" for 3-Gun or Carbine Matches won't get you off the hook.

It's the FOREIGN PARTS COUNT that is the determining factor. Typically, a Saiga Conversion will involve moving the FCG, & installing a pistol grip. You can buy a US Made pistol grip, but the sporting configuration didn't have one. So...you add the US part to avoid increasing your foreign parts count, but it doesn't reduce your foreign parts count.

The FCG counts as 3-parts (hammer, trigger, disconnector). The Stock and Handguards give you an opportunity to ADD two US parts and SUBTRACT two foreign parts. If you add a muzzle brake, it better be US Made because if foreign, it would ADD to your foreign parts count.

You're in a numbers game. I recently bought a Saiga .308 which appeared to be previously converted, but I had some concerns because typical compliance parts are often labeled Made in USA. There were some other functional issues with the rifle which led me to conclude that I should just make some changes with verifiable 922(r) compliant parts. I was able to replace:
FCG - 3 US parts
Pistol Grip - 1 US part
Stock - 1 US part

And I verified that the Muzzle Brake was US Made. That makes my US Part count 6, but that IS NOT the determining #.

It's the remaining foreign parts which must be 10 or less. In my case (I'll increment the #'s):
Receiver - 1
Barrel - 2
Trunnion - 3
Bolt - 4
Bolt Carrier - 5
Gas Piston - 6
Forearm/Handguard - 7
Magazine Body - 8
Magazine Follower - 9
Magazine Floorplate - 10

Different AK's/Saigas are considered to have different "incumbent" part counts. Without knowing which caliber you are considering, I can't tell you what your raw count will be. Most are in the 13-15 range IIRC.

Ironically, Domestically made 20-rd High Cap mag's are available for my .308 (I have some on order). So...I'm right at the legal limit for parts count with a foreign 8-rd Mag', but will have a net gain of 3 fewer foreign parts when my High Caps arrive.

It's an awkward law, and I've yet to find a credible accounting of a single person that has been charged with a 922(r) compliance violation. However, it is the law, and I won't encourage anyone to break it.

Other options (depending on caliber) is a pre-assembled bolt carrier assembly with a US Gas Piston to get a net 1 reduction in foreign parts, and there are front handguards that are US Made also.

If you have the tools, the time, or the ambition, you end up with a terrific gun. There are multiple 922(r) compliant offerings out there pre-configured as a completed rifle that you can spend anywhere from ~$300 - over $1000 depending on your budget.

Good luck!

CZ52'
 
CZ52GUY said:
Different AK's/Saigas are considered to have different "incumbent" part counts. Without knowing which caliber you are considering, I can't tell you what your raw count will be. Most are in the 13-15 range IIRC.

A 7.62 x 39 Saiga Sporter has 14 parts. Adding a pistol grip and muzzle device would bring the count to 16.

In a "typical" conversion (i.e., moving the FCG), the FCG and using a US-made buttstock and pistol grip (5 parts total) are enough to make you compliant. Using a US-made handguard and replacing the gas piston would buy you 2 more parts (although not necessary for 922R compliance). Like CZ52 said, if you add the pistol grip and muzzle device, just make sure they are US made or you're just adding to your parts problem.

You can get the required parts for a legal conversion for around $125 (that includes a bullet guide to let you use standard AK mags). It took me two weekends and a couple of weeknights to finish my conversion. Pic of my final is attached, and there are more on my website, here: http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/saiga.html

I recommend the conversion -- you'll have a great rifle at the end!

Jim
 

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People get all confused because they count U.S. made parts and then start adding parts (PG, Muzzle Brake, etc....) to the rifles "official" ATF parts count (14 for x39 sproterized Saiga).

The correct approach is to count import parts! as that's what the law regulates. No more than 10 "import parts"......

I'm studying, organizing and shopping for my first x39 conversion. If you've ever done a brake job (or work of similar complexity) on your own car, then don't be intimidated. There are a lot of great instructions with lots of photos out there. And best of all, the newer RAAC Saigas already have the PG nut and forward trigger group cut outs in the receiver, below the sporter trigger plate.

The bottom line is that if you want to add evil features....Pistol Grip, High Cap. Mags, etc.... you're supposed to play the 922R parts counting game.

At least one bonified Saiga expert and dealer told me in a PM that his research has yet to find a single prosecution of any kind under the 922R rules, but it's a LOT to risk (felony conviction) for what amounts to a pretty modest cost (couple hundred bucks).

All that said, the Saiga sporter is a handy rifle as is and I doubt it and a bag of stock 10 round mags would leave you wanting in any realistic SHTF, self defense or medium game hunting scenario.

my 2 cents......offered at a discount.
 
Thanks for all your advice, guys. This will help a bunch.

Sheesh, can you imagine all of the lives that have been saved by 922r? Man, if we just let these deadly assault weapons in to our country, there would be blood running in the streets.:scrutiny::rolleyes::barf:
 
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