Savage Model 12 vs GAP/Surgeon

[taliv]

if you are only shooting for groups on a square range, the savage is a good option on a budget. your anticipated firing schedule / round count would also factor into it.

'custom' doesn't just mean higher quality and craftsmanship, it means you get to pick all the features for the kind of shooting you are going to do. 'mission drives the gear' is a bit of a cliche for a reason

buying a tactical style surgeon to shoot f-class is a really bad idea. buying an f-class savage to pack around shooting UKD matches from barricades is also suboptimal.

re: brands, at the moment, i'd strongly recommend for GAP and against the surgeon, regardless of what you plan to do with it.

 

[HOOfan_1]

why do you recommend against Surgeon?

 

[aubie515]

I'm glad to see a 5R saying it's not the "magical" rifle that internet commandos claim. My 5R shot fine for a factory rifle, but it wasn't all that...my Savage with Shilen Select Match will outperform it consistently.

The custom action is going to give you nicer refinements, but I'm here to tell you that if you get a pre fit Savage from Shilen, CDI, McGowen that you will be a very happy camper.

 

[dmancornell]

OP here, thanks for all the responses.

To answer one post, no my 5R is not a 0.25 moa shooter. It's a solid 1-moa rifle with all 20 rounds in a box (I don't put much faith in 3 shot groups).

taliv: +1 on HOOfan's question, what is the issue with Surgeon at this time? Thanks.

 

[CountryUgly]

Everything imaginable has already been covered but I have to toss in my two cents worth.
The Savage LRP right out the box with Hornady Superformance 6.5cm ammo has won a bunch of F-Class matches. IMO (and speaking from personal experience) The LRP is as good as 90% of the custom rifles built. They can be better with hand loads but the Hornady ammo is far from lacking. Besides Hornady prints the data for whats in the box right on the box so if you do eventually get into hand loading you can duplicate the load.

 

[Cee Zee]

I recall statements of cherry-picked OEM parts

Your comment about cherry picking parts doesn't ring true. Again they started winning competitions with the parts that came with their rifles. It wasn't until later that they rebarreled their guns, which BTW is almost a must for any serious competitions. The statement from a TS member clearly said his original barrel was very good and that he shouldn't have changed it. At any rate just being able to pick parts that go on stock rifles is something worthy of being marketed. BTW my daughter is the head of marketing of a large company. I learned a good deal about it myself in my college years. I have had long conversations about it with my daughter. She graduated summa cum laude from Ohio St. BTW. She made one B in 4 years. And that was because she wouldn't toe the line in a class where extreme liberalism was counted as a requirement.

I certainly don't think Savages are the best rifles made. I wish people would read what I actually say instead of assuming that any words of praise for them is equal to saying they are the best rifle made. There is no such thing as the "best". The type of shooting you will be doing matters a lot. But to "ever" win against custom rifles with a stock rifle (and they did it with the barrels that came with their rifles at first - they said so) is quite an accomplishment. All I said was that it happened. I didn't say Savages would beat every rifle ever made. People really go off on their own tangent without bothering to read what gets posted.

 

[Skylerbone]

Speaking of tangents and what has been written; I'll reiterate what I wrote:

What the OP needs...we simply cannot divine that with the information given except to say that too little has been qualified to narrow things down to the equipment being to blame.

I could care less about the talents of professional shooters, qualifying their accomplishments gets us no closer to helping the OP. If all that is required to hit steel at 1,000 yds. is ownership of a Savage we would have nothing but reports of their infallibility.

My .02 on SuperFormance ammo: the rifle dictates what shoots well out of it. From two 300 Win Mags, one a Savage 116 the other a TC Encore Pro Hunter with custom barrel (both with comps) SuperFormance shot no better than 2.5" 3-shot groups at 100 yds. with both rifles being new. Now believing his eyes were failing, my father enlisted my help dialing in the pair but to no avail.

Pressure signs were evident and as neither had been previously proven, my father took both to the smith for testing and a bore scope. After a case head separation, his remaining 4 boxes of SuperFormance were returned to Hornady for exchange with Hornady Custom and an employee admitted that his was not nearly the first incident involving this ammo.

My father did manage to dial in both rifles in time for our moose hunt where from a distance of 423 yds. (according to the Leupold rangefinder) he made an outstanding unsupported shot. No such thing as magic rifles or magic ammo, only adequate equipment and adequate marksmen.

 

[Cee Zee]

I could care less about the talents of professional shooters, qualifying their accomplishments gets us no closer to helping the OP. If all that is required to hit steel at 1,000 yds. is ownership of a Savage we would have nothing but reports of their infallibility.

I hope you're not implying I said that. Because anyone that has any idea what it takes to shoot 1000 yards knows that the skill of the shooter is FAR more important than the equipment they're using. Once you get above a certain level the equipment becomes almost moot. The skill of the shooter and that includes the ability to work up the right load makes up the vast majority of the requirements for shooting long distance.

Again my point was only that custom rifles were not always superior to off the shelf rifles. For most of us that never shoot 1000 yards the rifle will matter. Out to 400 yards or so the quality of the rifle makes a big difference. You just can't get some rifles to do well at 400 yards no matter what. But a rifle that shoots 400 yards will do well at longer distances depending on the shooter because the bullet has to travel fairly straight to do well at 400 yards. But beyond that things like the wind make a big difference. So you need a bullet with a low drag coefficient and the right powder to keep that bullet up to a certain level of speed out to the desired range. Then you have to know how to read the wind and make adjustments for it.

These are the reasons I think that custom rifles aren't always necessary. That's why a rifle that is very close to stock if not bone stock can at times do better than a custom build. It's because the skill of the shooter means more than the quality of the rifle.

 

[back40]

The skill of the shooter and that includes the ability to work up the right load makes up the vast majority of the requirements for shooting long distance.

this is what quite a few in this thread are saying.

the OP hasn't really spoken of his ability or lack there of. 5 shot groups at 100 yds are used pretty much industry wide to indicate what a particular rifle is capable of. the OP's 5R is a solid moa gun over a box of ammo....what does that mean? a 20 shot group that measures moa? what ammo is it? have you tried any others? different bullet weights? have you shot any other rifles, and what is your accuracy with those?

also, i still say lack of handloads will be THE (aside from shooter skill) limiting factor. finding what your rifle likes best, generally gets you better accuracy than picking the best rifle with off the shelf ammo.

 

[Cee Zee]

this is what quite a few in this thread are saying

And it really doesn't address the question of the OP at all. He didn't ask how to shoot 1000 yards. He asked:

will there be a significant difference between say, the Savage Model 12 versus a GAP or Surgeon build at those distances

To that question someone said:

a custom build is going to be more accurate across the board than any mass produced factory rifle.

I disagreed with that since Savage proved they could compete in certain situations against some custom built rifles. From there people somehow got in their head that I thought all Savages were God's gift to shooting. They don't read what was said.

 

[back40]

sometimes how information is presented leaves more of an impression than the actual information itself.

i for one don't think anyone can really give an accurate answer to the OP's question given his requirement of only factory ammo.

looking at shooter skill, optics, mounting etc. is just trying to find another way to help the OP reach his goal if possible. another rifle may not fix his perceived problem.

 

[Skylerbone]

another rifle may not fix his perceived problem.

Thank you back40 for summarizing my sentiment. CeeZee, my point, and I believe the point of several others is that answering the question asked may not be so simple as yes or no. If I asked which weight .308 bullet would be most accurate from my .270 the answer should not be the Sierra 168 Match King, it should be take a harder look at what you've just asked. Discussion of the question asked becomes academic if the answer does not offer a true solution.

The 5R may not be the most accurate mass produced rifle ever but it is generally accepted as good enough in the right hands to accomplish the OP's objective. Not to besmirch his ability but he's the only one in this discussion who knows if HE is capable.

 

[FiveInADime]

this is what quite a few in this thread are saying.

the OP hasn't really spoken of his ability or lack there of. 5 shot groups at 100 yds are used pretty much industry wide to indicate what a particular rifle is capable of. the OP's 5R is a solid moa gun over a box of ammo....what does that mean? a 20 shot group that measures moa? what ammo is it? have you tried any others? different bullet weights? have you shot any other rifles, and what is your accuracy with those?

also, i still say lack of handloads will be THE (aside from shooter skill) limiting factor. finding what your rifle likes best, generally gets you better accuracy than picking the best rifle with off the shelf ammo.

There are a lot of service rifles shooting military target ammo that might disagree with the assertion that handloading is a prerequisite to long-range accuracy.

The guy clearly stated he did not have the time to handload. I love doing it myself, but it does take a lot of time working on precision rifle loads. His goals should be possible with FACTORY MATCH AMMO in a rifle capable of shooting to his required accuracy at the distances he listed. Learning to read the wind flags might be the best time spent.

 

[Robert]

Well since this has defended into arguments that are not really helping answer the question this is closed. OP if you want to try again go for it.