Self-Defense .45 Ammo

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Of course ATK wouldn't be biased in their findings....

Besides my own testing, I've been at several shoots where the performance was similar, including one that Winchester did. I believe there's several agencies listed on the site that might be able to verify.

There's not much in it for the major's to put unreproducable test results up on their websites. If the WB guys do the same test, with different results, the word gets around pretty quick.
 
Sounds like some pretty wicked rds here. My P97 ruger feeds everything I've tried and I like the Win Silvertips but being a bit old fashioned I still carry hardball most of the time. May not be the best but some pretty serious shooters out there still use it too.
 
Elmer,
what do you do? Do you work in a medical examiner's office? I'd be very interested in your experiences. Please let me know where you have access to these slugs. I'm very curious.
Thanks,
David

Former cop, armorer, consultant, and student of wound ballistics, with a bunch of really good friends. :)

In your position you should have no problem getting data from various police labs. If the labs in your own state won't cooperate, PM me, and I can give you names and phone numbers of folks out here who will. As long as there's no reference to names or cases, most of them will share data with qualified individuals. Also, folks like Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. Gary Roberts, or Duncan Mcpherson are all reachable and are a wealth of data. Most rangemasters are at least provided with a shooting report, frequently with bullet photo's.

Hollow points not expanding in actual shootings was pretty common years ago, but honestly, with today's better rounds, expansion is the norm. The one that I saw yesterday was a 9mm 147 grain. It had expanded to about .75, and it's retained weight was almost 100%. Some barriers can close up even the best hollow points, but direct fire into living tissue, you can count on today's ammo.
 
Also David, take a look at http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm.

Lot's of good reading, and links to a world of information on wound ballistics.

The site is run by Shawn Dodson, who is a member here and posts frequently. Shawn is very helpful if you'd like to contact him.
 
Hollow points not expanding in actual shootings was pretty common years ago, but honestly, with today's better rounds, expansion is the norm. The one that I saw yesterday was a 9mm 147 grain. It had expanded to about .75, and it's retained weight was almost 100%. Some barriers can close up even the best hollow points, but direct fire into living tissue, you can count on today's ammo.
Hi, Elmer. Thanks for your replies.
The round you saw yesterday/day before, had it been fired through a person?
The reason I ask is that I have not found bullets expanding (even Winchester's Ranger Talons) when they were fired into a person.
I know these rounds expand in gelatin, wet phone books, etc ... but have you seen expanded rounds taken from people's bodies?
Thanks,

David
 
Yes, David, it was a bullet removed from a person. I have seen many in person, and far more in photographs.

If you use the links I posted, you should be able to find some good information. One you should look for, is Eugene Wolberg's study comparing recovered bullets from officer involved shootings, with the same rounds fired into 10% gelatin. The bullets performance were statistically identical. It was one of the studies used to prove the accuracy of gelatin testing. If the bullet expands in properly calibrated gelatin, it will expand in tissue. If your people are using telephone books, you may wish to make some changes....

Again, today's better ammunition, not expanding, unless it was plugged from a barrier, would be very strange, and should be cause for concern. I have occasionally, seen a lot of ammunition that was considerably underloaded, which can impair performance, including expansion. Good reason to regularly chronograph ammunition used for duty.

This is why it's so important for bullet performance to be evaluated by trained personnel. Anecdotal information is useless. We've all heard the stories like "the bad guy was shot 19 times with 9mm with no effect." Then when you read the report, the crook was shot at 19 times, and was hit twice, once in the foot, and once in the thumb. Some Gunwriters are famous for throwing these kinds of stories into their articles, usually to help prove, (or promote....), the effectiveness of a particular round or caliber. Look to scientists for your data.... not writers......
 
Thanks, Elmer, for such a detailed and useful post. I'm going to the report now.
Thanks again,

David
 
Thanks, Elmer, for such a detailed and useful post. I'm going to the report now.
Thanks again,

David

No problem. I appreciate someone in your position taking the time to learn about this. Most of the DA's I've worked with could care less.
 
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