SKS Question (Not one that's been asked 100 times)

[RockyMtnTactical]

I have been trying to get a clear cut answer on this issue for about 4-5 years now... Still don't have a clue.

Let's say you modified your SKS by removing the GL, the GL sights, bayonet, etc.. already. What then?

 

[esq_stu]

Technosavant wrote:

The reason semiauto surplus rifles require compliance parts is because they are universally nonsporting. However, due to the fixed magazine and lack of a pistol grip, the SKS is a stone's throw from being sporting. Lose the evil features, and it is legally no different from a Chinese Norinco SKS sporter.

Speaking of the Norinco, of which I have two, there are several pistol grip/folding or collapsible stock arrangements out there (for example the Tapco T6 collapsible stock). It already is a fixed magazine rifle. Must one go through the whole parts count thing to use one of these stocks? What other parts are recommended to be replaced to make it legal?

 

[Technosavant]

"Sporting purposes" status of the Yugo SKS has already been determined by the ATF and Attorney General: it's "military surplus," not a sporting firearm.

I was under the impression that the determining factor between sporting and non-sporting were the presence of non-sporting features, such as they bayonet, grenade launcher, and the rest, not in some independent "finding" by somebody in the AG's officer or at the ATF.

Do you have a source for that? I'm not calling you a liar, I just would like more information. If that is indeed the case, then yes, you are correct in all particulars. But I've not seen that position held before, which is why I ask for verification.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

You can make certain TEMPORARY mods to the Yugo that the ATF is OK with.

-The GL can come off--but you must cover the threads with a cover and a drop of solder--you can't just grind off the threads--you have to be able to put the GL back on. Threads can't be left bare either.

-Bayo can come off, mount ,must stay

-Stock must be OEM wood or newly made replica thereof.

-sights/optics can be added and mounts for this purpose.

-spring returned firing pin mod has been specifically allowed while keeping c/r compliant.

The big 'logic' is that mods have to be temporary and not allow 'unlawful' conditions to exist (like exposed threads on the barrel).

Look, when you have a rifle in an intermediate caliber that is as long as an M-1 and weighs almost as much--the urge to remove the needless bits hits you. I've gotten past that and would encourage others to do so. It's not a poor man's AK, and I wouldn't even call the Yugo a carbine--but it has a certain charm.

 

[Technosavant]

Speaking of the Norinco, of which I have two, there are several pistol grip/folding or collapsible stock arrangements out there (for example the Tapco T6 collapsible stock). It already is a fixed magazine rifle. Must one go through the whole parts count thing to use one of these stocks? What other parts are recommended to be replaced to make it legal?

The most easily changed out compliance parts would be the stock, handguard, gas piston, operating rod, as well as the whole of the magazine (that's 3-mag body, follower, floor plate). I don't remember the exact parts count on the SKS, though. Those are the easiest parts to swap, and it can be done in about 20 minutes from the appropriate box showing up on the doorstep.

 

[Technosavant]

Look, when you have a rifle in an intermediate caliber that is as long as an M-1 and weighs almost as much--the urge to remove the needless bits hits you. I've gotten past that and would encourage others to do so. It's not a poor man's AK, and I wouldn't even call the Yugo a carbine--but it has a certain charm.

Fully agree. This is why I keep scratching my head over people modding the SKS, especially the Yugo. It isn't especially compact. It isn't a model of accuracy. It isn't necessarily even able to be made all that "tactical." If a person wants a long range "sniper" rifle, any used deer rifle is a better pick. If a person wants something for clearing house, there's no end to possibilities of other guns. The SKS is what it is, and especially with the Yugos, the legalities are muddled and involved enough, it isn't worth trying to screw with. Love it for what it is, and for other things, there's other guns.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

OK, assuming the bayo mount has been removed and the GL has been cut off. What then?

 

[Jackal]

OK, assuming the bayo mount has been removed and the GL has been cut off. What then?

Keep it, shoot it and sell it when your done with it. Nobody, and I do mean nobody around here even thinks twice about the 922 game. Even the dealers just laugh at it. Its one of the biggest jokes around.

 

[FEG]

First, ignorata non excusata. As an owner of one of these weapons, you are presumed to know the laws affecting them. This is beyond debate, as it is a traditional rule of Anglo-American jurisprudence.

Second, there are reasons why a Romanian or Russian is worth more than a Yugo. Now you see why...

Third, you might laugh at 18 USC 922(r) compliance, but I sure don't. The G-Men may not be actively prosecuting it NOW, but they sure will tack any violations they find if they catch you with a SBR, etc. Federal criminal law is no joke; with the FSG, you will do some real time, not just a fine.

Fourth, never admit to the elements of a Federal crime on the internet, or your intention to violate a Federal statute. Why risk it?

 

[Jackal]

I agree with the SBR and full auto laws. Weapons of these sorts really have no practical use for civilians and I have never been interested in either type. I just dont agree with the internet paranoia over the compliance parts issue. The "feds" dont have to kick in my door, I'll invite them in for a cup of coffee, a donut and personally hand them each firearm I own for detailed inspection.

Well it's nice to know that you're all for banning things you don't want to have.

Did I say anything about banning? I just said I agree with the current laws.

 

[jerkface11]

Well it's nice to know that you're all for banning things you don't want to have.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

I was under the impression that the determining factor between sporting and non-sporting were the presence of non-sporting features, such as they bayonet, grenade launcher, and the rest, not in some independent "finding" by somebody in the AG's officer or at the ATF.

Yes, you are correct...in most cases. What complicates this instance is that the Yugo SKS is a "surplus military firearm." There is a clear distinction between "surplus military firearms" and firearms "generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" as stated in 18 USC 925(d)(3).

18 USC 925(d)(3) and 18 USC 925(e)(1):

18 USC 925:

(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition—

[irrelevant sections cut]

(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) [ed. 5845 defines "machine guns"] of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled;...

[more irrelevant verbiage cut]

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Attorney General shall authorize the importation of, by any licensed importer, the following:

(1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921 (a)(13), and...

This section specifically excludes "surplus military firearms" from those "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." That is a clear distinction. Furthermore, it excludes non-sporting and "surplus military firearms" from eligibility for import. It also states that the Attorney General my authorize importation of military surplus firearms listed as "curios and relics."

Simple version:

"particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" and not a "surplus military firearm" == IMPORTABLE
NOT "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" == NOT IMPORTABLE
"surplus military firearm" == NOT IMPORTABLE
"surplus military firearm" that has been classified as "curio and relic" == IMPORTABLE

Once again, this is why we don't see any importation of any military surplus firearms that have not been declared "Curio and Relic." The military surplus AK's (like the M70) we can buy here have been rebuilt with USA made compliance parts, thusly making them de-facto USA made firearms--not imports--and therefore exempt from 925(d)(3) and 922(r). Saigas and WASR-10's are not military surplus, and therefore are imported as "sporting weapons."

Yes, these laws are confusing. They really don't make any sense. Why somebody thought that an imported gas piston is "more evil" than an identical USA made one is beyond me.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Nobody, and I do mean nobody around here even thinks twice about the 922 game.

Currently, that's true. ATF does not aggressively enforce 922(r), especially in the case of consumers. However, that could EASILY and QUICKLY change with an anti-gun administration. The laws are already on the books. It would be simple to start sending ATF agents out to firing ranges and begin inspecting for compliance parts.

There would be little public outcry against it, since "operation round-up" would "only be targeting criminals that have illegally modified semi automatic assault rifles to make them more deadly."

Think about this folks-- no new act of congress would be needed: Only a US Attorney General that is "serious about enforcing gun laws" and "cracking down on gun crime." Do remember that violation of 922(r) is a felony with serious jail time. I bet there are THOUSANDS of well-adjusted, otherwise lawful gun owners that are in violation of 922(r)--and don't even know it. The stipulations of this law are extremely unusual. Most Americans are not used to being told how they can or can not modify their legally purchased property.

 

[Technosavant]

Thanks for the clarification Mojo. Even though I think I have a headache now...

And yeah, it is confusing, it is stupid, is makes absolutely no difference in real world terms, but 922r is THE LAW. Not following THE LAW opens yourself up to major potential repercussions. Although the powers that be may not be terribly concerned about that part of THE LAW to the point of trying to enforce it in the absence of other violations, it doesn't take any real action to change that. If you do something that the feds don't like, even if totally legal, not following THE LAW in some other area of like opens yourself up.

Remember, Capone got sent up for tax evasion. I fully believe that one day we'll see an otherwise perfectly law abiding gun owner get sent up for having 11 imported parts on a non-sporting firearm. It would be a pretty stupid thing to get convicted of a federal felony, spend a couple years in prison, lose every major possession you own and possibly your family, ruin the rest of your life, and never be able to touch a gun again all because you thought a half dozen parts totaling less than $200 were no big deal and nobody would ever care.