Taser x3 versus J-frame

[Habeed]

Now fellas, I know what ya'll are thinking. Gun>>>>>>>plastic tool with electronics inside. But the new taser x3, which has the ability to fire 3 times before being reloaded, got me a thinkin'.

See, I've seen various police videos where the cops come across a victim who had been shot with a 0.32 round in the belly. The guy was in a fair bit of pain, but he was still fully able to move around and do whatever. There's also that famous FBI shootout a while back.

Another police video I saw, an off duty cop was enjoying a few drinks at a bar. A perp came in with a 9mm and began randomly shooting people in the bar. The officer drew his CCW, and he says in the video that each of the two combatants saw each other at about the same moment. The officer said that each of them stood a few feet apart firing rounds into the other until the perp ran off. The cop's aim or luck was better, so the suspect died a few feet outside the bar...after pumping a few shots into the chest of the officer.

Well, we know what a taser does. Every single video I've ever seen, if both probes of the taser impact the suspect goes down without fail. I've never read of one not working if both probes connect and the device has a fresh battery. If the off duty cop had been packing a taser, he could have taken the suspect down in a single hit.

So I'm wondering how the taser x3 stacks up against a J-frame for the purposes of self defense. With the J-frame, you got 6 shots, but the bullets are small and in an actual shooting you're probably going to fire several to take down one man. And you have to hit someone in the triangle or it's going to do ****-all to stop em. With the taser, you just gotta land the two probes anywhere on the person's body. With the taser, however, you only have a range of 15 feet. Less than 6% of engagements by New York city cops occur at a greater range, however.

The taser is expensive as heck, that's true. I think the civilian x3 model is around $1500. OTOH, if you shoot someone with a J-frame and the evidence the cops find at the scene can be twisted by the DA into a way that makes you look guilty, you might give up 5 years of your life and $500,000 in legal bills to get your freedom back. If you tase someone, realistically the DA probably isn't going to file charges, even if it does look a little shady, as long as you have at least some evidence supporting your story.

Some links for those of you wondering what the heck I'm going on about :
http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERX3.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7uTLLF34_g
http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm
http://www.thestate.com/157/story/1001209.html

 

[Vonderek]

I'm no taser expert but what happens if the batteries are dead or weak? Or what if you are in a remote location with little or no police response, then what do you do after you tase the person? Eventually the taser will have to turn turn off and then you are back at square one but now with a pissed off perp and you are left with no other options. What if the perp is wearing winter clothing? What if the perp is high on drugs? I seem to remember Rodney King was still functional while tased before his infamous beatdown.

 

[kingpin008]

if both probes of the taser impact the suspect goes down without fail

This is not entirely accurate, but let's say it is. What happens if both probes don't impact? What then? Completely useless. And what happens if the subject is on drugs, and requires more than one shock to really convince him to stay down? If the badguy is alone that might be fine, but if he's got a friend or two with him you're going to find yourself wishing you had more than three jolts pretty (along with a way to administer them) pretty quick.

And that's another thing - if there is than one, you have to choose which one you -really- want to take down, and commit yourself. If the barbs hit home, you're still going to have to keep the trigger depressed to actuate the shock, and keep yourself connected to the perp while he's down. If his buddies decide to come after you, what are you going to do? Run up to the one on the ground, rip out the probes, and try to re-use them on the next attacker?

Not likely.

Firearms evolved into the tools that they are for a reason. They're effective, and they afford their users a powerful means of self defense while allowing them the advantage of being able to keep distance from their attacker.

 

[hso]

Every single video I've ever seen, if both probes of the taser impact the suspect goes down without fail. I've never read of one not working if both probes connect and the device has a fresh battery.

No one system is perfect.

I have seen footage of people fighting through the tazer to rip one of the leads out. This is a rare event, but it is possible. There are also the problem with heavy clothing reducing the tazer effectiveness (not much good if one lead doesn't reach the skin).

Of course, there are numerous instances where several center of mass hits with a common handgun won't stop an aggressor right away.

As said, no SD system is perfect and it is in our own best interest to understand the limitations and advantages of any SD system(s) we decide to use. Ain't no magic wands out there that freeze people right in their tracks first time, every time.

 

[eagleno49]

And that's another thing - if there is than one, you have to choose which one you -really- want to take down, and commit yourself. If the barbs hit home, you're still going to have to keep the trigger depressed to actuate the shock, and keep yourself connected to the perp while he's down. If his buddies decide to come after you, what are you going to do? Run up to the one on the ground, rip out the probes, and try to re-use them on the next attacker?

The one the OP posted has 3 shots. Watch the youtube video.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Don't take a Taser to a gun fight.

The Taser has it's uses in law enforcement but I don't think it has but the smallest place in civilian use.
Like Pepper spray, etc, it might have a very limited use but it can also get you shot.

If you use a weapon, any weapon, on someone you had better be able to back it up.

I'll take the J Frame.

 

[kingpin008]

The one the OP posted has 3 shots. Watch the youtube video.

Ok, that's great - but what happens if one of the shots misses, or the badguys don't feel like standing in a nice orderly line for you? Keep in mind that you very well may have to move to find cover while you deploy your weapon, and in doing so you may easily find yourself out of range of the wires.

And what happens if you did manage to tase all three, but only one goes down completely. Do you continue to tase the compliant one to ensure the remaining combatants get a big enough jolt? What if you do, and the one who was initially compliant dies? You might find yourself explaining to a jury why you decided to keep administering an electric shock to an individual who was no longer a threat to you.

 

[John Wayne]

An off-duty cop was at a bar drinking and carrying a gun? Where is that legal?

FWIW, I prefer a J-frame. If I did not have the time or money to shoot it frequently, I would much prefer the tazer.

 

[kingpin008]

An off-duty cop was at a bar drinking and carrying a gun? Where is that legal?

A few places. Why?

 

[CoRoMo]

There's also that famous FBI shootout a while back.

Yeah, that's what they should have had, a taser.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Are you considering this for concealed carry? That taser looks to be about the size of a Kriss SuperV. Not exactly something you can slip into your pocket. I think LEOs usually carry them in thigh holsters.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've seen an impromptu Taser demo. The guy didn't go down right away.

The Taser has its uses. Talk to an old cop sometime about what they used to do when someone needed to be subdued, but shooting him wasn't justified. Pistol-whipping wasn't unheard-of, and beatings with billy clubs were common. There were no great less-lethal options.

A Taser is intended for law enforcement use, to replace old tactics like beating someone with a baton (Rodney King video, anyone?), pistol-whipping him, or using the choke hold that turned out to be fatal in some.

It does not replace a firearm in the hands of a cop or an everyday citizen, and it was never designed to. Frankly, I see no good reason for a civilian whose job doesn't involve subduing out-of-control but not murderous suspects, to spend the money on a Taser, if legal concealed carry is an option.

Remember: if you're not justified in using a gun, you're not legally justified in using the Taser. If you're really trying to stop a deadly attack, do you want a high-tech billy club, or a gun?

 

[gym]

Sometimes you need 5 or 10 rounds if you find yourself being in a gunfight. Taser isn't going to work for that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

One thing I've noticed is that when one officer deploys some sort of "less lethal" weapon like a Taser or beanbag shotgun, there are usually a few other cops right there ready to immediately use lethal force if the less lethal thingie doesn't work.

 

[Habeed]

Thanks for the replies, fellas.

Yeah, that taser is pretty bulky. Might be a bit hard to conceal.

Batteries aren't an issue anymore...the new tasers use lithium ion battery packs that are supposed to be good for 1000 shots or something...as long as you don't power the gadget up all the time, it's probably going to work when you need it.

And I'm not saying a taser is perfect...I'm just asking the question : does it have more stopping power than the weakest firearm that meets the minimum FBI standards? That's why this is "Taser vs J-frame", not "taser vs. AR-15 chambered in 0.308 HP with EOTech and 40 rnd mag"

If the videos, and Taser international's own statistics are to be believed, their device is MUCH more effective than a J-frame. Somewhere on their website, they claim that in actual police deployments, the taser works more than 90% of the time, versus a much lower number for a firearm. Grain of salt, but it's possible that they are correct.

Just because a piece of metal flying through the air is the way we are used to stopping people doesn't mean it's the only way. With a bullet, you're trying to punch a hole through a vital organ on a person that will immediately incapacitate them. You pretty much need a direct hit to the brain, spine, or heart to do that. Any other organ, and the person may die...quite a while later.

Sure, bullets cause pain...but people who have been hit with a taser and with bullets claim the taser causes more pain.

Maybe the taser x3 isn't ready to replace a handgun. But I don't think weapon development has reached it's peak. Eventually, there will be an electroshock weapon available that is better than a firearm in every way except that it only causes death an incredibly small percentage of the time. (the activists against Taser say that there have been 150 deaths, and the taser has been used several hundred thousand times)

 

[kingpin008]

as long as you don't power the gadget up all the time, it's probably going to work when you need it.

Keyword is probably. With a handgun (especially a revolver) the chances that you will experience a malfunction that results in the gun becoming completely disbaled is just about zero.

does it have more stopping power than the weakest firearm that meets the minimum FBI standards?

Stopping power is not absolute, and cannot be accurately measured. Does a Taser have stopping power? For sure. Is it equal to or better than a J-frame? Maybe, maybe not. The thing you should be picking up on is that while the possibility of it being a better "man-stopper" is there, the limitations of the device versus those of a revolver are greater.

If the videos, and Taser international's own statistics are to be believed, their device is MUCH more effective than a J-frame.

Taser International is a business. Do you really think that they'd readily make available information and statistics that discredit the effectiveness of their product?

Just because a piece of metal flying through the air is the way we are used to stopping people doesn't mean it's the only way.

Correct. Hso mentioned this exact point earlier.

With a bullet, you're trying to punch a hole through a vital organ on a person that will immediately incapacitate them. You pretty much need a direct hit to the brain, spine, or heart to do that. Any other organ, and the person may die...quite a while later.

Yes and no. You're correct in that bullets stop by "punching holes" in people, but there's more to it than that. Bullets cause a lot of damage in the body as they pass through, creating much more damage than just a "hole". Couple that with the fact that a bullet does not require another bullet to work (unlike the Taser, which requires both probes to be embedded to work at all) and you already have an advantage over the Taser.

Also, with a revolver you have at least five rounds. That's a +2 advantage in regards to "stopping power" over the Taser.

And so on, and so on...

 

[BURN]

a taser is good enough to help you in some limited circustances if you ar enot LEO

a gun is a better all around tool

 

[357mag.]

Bullets out of a J-frame are small ? I'll take my 357mag over a taser anyday.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

If the videos, and Taser international's own statistics are to be believed, their device is MUCH more effective than a J-frame. Somewhere on their website, they claim that in actual police deployments, the taser works more than 90% of the time, versus a much lower number for a firearm. Grain of salt, but it's possible that they are correct.

I wonder if they take into consideration that the taser is usually used as a compliance tool for someone not cooperating, while the handgun is a tool used to stop someone who is trying to kill you, probably in an adrenaline-fueled high speed moving and shooting situation.

Using either tool for the job of the other will land you in hot water (if you survive), that's why LEOs carry both. You don't shoot the guy who refuses lay down on the ground, and you don't try to use a taser on the guy who is shooting at you.

I think a civilian using a taser may be in as much trouble with the DA as with a firearm. Possibly painting you as someone trying to "play cop" and using a less lethal tool in a situation where lethal force wasn't justified. One thing's for sure; the bad guy will be alive and well to sue the pants off ya afterwards (not that his next of kin wouldn't do the same thing if you used lethal force).

 

[ArmedBear]

I wonder if they take into consideration that the taser is usually used as a compliance tool for someone not cooperating, while the handgun is a tool used to stop someone who is trying to kill you, probably in an adrenaline-fueled high speed moving and shooting situation.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

The difference between LE applications for a Taser and for a gun are the difference between a dumbass who's had a few too many beers and takes a wild swing at a cop, and hardened criminal firing on people with a shotgun.

90% of drunk dumbasses will be subdued by a Taser (or in the recent past, a good solid hit with a baton or a revolver butt). A smaller percentage of violent criminals on meth will be stopped by the first shot from a pistol. That proves nothing, either way, other than that drunk dumbasses and hopped-up violent criminals are different classes of "perps".

 

[franconialocal]

I'll give you an example of an incident when the TASER did NOT work when it was "supposed to".

My brother was on patrol in Littleton NH about a year ago when he was called to a male "out of control" and fighting at a bar on Main St.

He responded, and due to coverage limitations he was the only officer there for quite some time....and this guy was in no mood to play. My brother was giving him very direct verbal orders to prone out on the ground and the guy kept advancing on him. My brother is about 5'9" and weighs in only around 165lbs.

This was a kid that we went to high school with and he's had a very storied history of violence and mental health issues. He stands about 6'00 even and weighs in around 220lbs.

My brother kept backing up-backing up, verbal orders all the way for the man to stop advancing and comply but was not ready to bridge the gap to take him down without some support. My brother drew his TASER and deployed it...full frontal shot. This DID NOT stop the guy, as he was wearing an un-zipped heavy snowmobile jacket at the time. The probes never made contact with the skin and never "completed the circut" and the cartridge was essentially wasted. My brother said that due to the fact he was alone, size difference, the TASER not working, etc. he felt more than justified at that point in using deadly force if needed. The guy was still advancing fast enough that he could not effectively remove the spent cartridge and use the taser like a stun gun (drive stun). Luckly a patrolman from a nearby community that had been responding showed up and they were able to take him into custody without having to resort to deadly force. The man later admitted that he would have tried to kill my brother if he could have taken his gun, and he was under the influence of crystal meth at the time as well. The point?? Tasers are not without limitations (just like sidearms)....but I would rather have a sidearm any day when it really counts.