What is a gun without bullets?

[Ehtereon11B]

Having been overseas recently in the hilly sandbox (Afghanistan 2010) I can weigh in on this one. Certain Air Force dominated bases won't allow the "real" forces (Army, Marines etc) to carry loaded weapons. This is especially true at Bagram Airfield, the largest base in the country. To make the gun without bullets rule even more nonsense, some bases have the disarmed troops carry empty magazines in their weapons. Personnaly I never trusted my operational safety to someone whose entire weapons training composed of 3 hours on a range one time. So I carried my "empty" magazine full. And one in the back pocket for good measure.

 

[Coop45]

Well done Grunt!!

 

[HankB]

During the 1960's riots I was ordered to be a Platoon Leader for National Guardsmen going into the riots. (I was a Warrant Officer (pilot) in the Guard at the time).
I was thretened with Court Marshal because I refused to order those men into the riots without any ammo. I said any man under my command WILL have ammo, if I have to buy it myself.

Friend of mine supplied his own ammo back then - as did all his buddies. Brass was PISSED when they were demobilized and stuff like hollowpoint ammo was turned in.

I remember my Dad - a WWII vet - just about hit the ceiling when he saw a Marine being interviewed after the 1983(?) truck bombing in Beirut; the poor Marine was saying the last thing he remembered before the explosion was the sight of another Marine trying to load his weapon, because they weren't allowed to have loaded weapons . . .

 

[lloveless]

I believe it was in the 90's that we had an truck bomb in Syria detoneated ouside a Marine baracks after crashing the gate. The guards had no ammo. RIDICULOUS!
ll

 

[Blackstone]

All these anecdotes honestly beggar belief. Why even bother carrying a gun if there's nothing loaded. Especially when, as some stories seem to suggest, you aren't allowed to take rounds with you "just in case"

 

[SilentStalker]

Haven't you heard? Nato is the new Al Queda, duh, I thought everyone knew that.

 

[mr16ga]

They gave us night sticks when I stood watch in the Navy 1969 to 1976. They took the 1911s away after some guy shot a hole in the guard shack over head. Even with a night stick some kid went nuts and beat an air craft up and went to Leavenworth Kansas over it, an Id10t problem.

Come to think of it after boot camp the only Sailor I saw with a gun was the guy that shot a line from one ship to the next for unreps. Then he handed off the shotgun to a Marine. I assure you that the Marines I knew had live ammo might not have had one up the chamber but then it does not take long to jack the slide either. My weapon of choice was an A7E with 500 lbs. bombs in a multi-ejection rack and a loaded M61A1 Gatling gun I did not need small arms. my ship, USS Coral Sea, CVA 43 had 5 inch 54's

I remember back in the 60's our guys were not allowed to have loaded weapons in Viet Nam and had to ask to shoot back. That did not work out there either. One would think a lesson learned should be learned once and not every 40 years or so.

 

[Warp]

What is a bullet without a case, powder, and primer?

 

[leadcounsel]

There are a lot of innane, assinine policies implemented out there by Commanders who are more interested in saving their own skin than keeping service members safe. One example is the standard prohibition of keeping even a loaded magazine in the weapon unless you are outside the wire. The thought is that folks are 'relatively' safe inside the wire, and having a mag in the weapon increases the chances of a ND and unnecessary injury/death.

It's baloney if you ask me, as we are supposedly highly trained. But it's the truth.

I thought it would only be a matter of time until this backfired and un-armed service members killed. I think this policy is criminally negligent and those responsible should answer for it.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Having been overseas recently in the hilly sandbox (Afghanistan 2010) I can weigh in on this one. Certain Air Force dominated bases won't allow the "real" forces (Army, Marines etc) to carry loaded weapons.

It's gotten even worse, at least down south (my only time in Bagram was passing through on medevac, but it seemed at least as silly as KAF).

I thought it would only be a matter of time until this backfired and un-armed service members killed. I think this policy is criminally negligent and those responsible should answer for it.

+1

I doubt it happens, but it should.

 

[Milamber]

Back in blighty in the early eighties we were issued one round for Guard duty. Mind you probably a good thing for mechanics.

Its my understanding that in A'stan that the one of the latest shootings occurred at the range when the Police officer was handed a sidearm for the first time he promptly turned on his trainers. I also understand that two things have changed also. Angels are now present and armed at mess halls etc and particular trainers are assigned to watch for any threat from the trainees and deal with it.

A contributing factor is the push to build the strength of the Afghan security force is so fast that background checks are not deep enough.

 

[JShirley]

It has been common on many bases in Afghanistan to require that US forces on base have at least one loaded magazine on their person. Of course, weapon condition status and ammo load changes when "leaving the wire"/going off base.

Some of the base defense postures have changed this year. That's all I'm going to say, but the OP is a response to a badly articulated and misunderstood response.

I will say that most military members are not used to walking around with a chambered weapon all the time. That is nothing new.

John

 

[Twiki357]

Granted it was a non-combat time. But when I was in Korea in 1965, the only time a weapon was available was for guard duty. Depending on the area, it was a 12 gauge with 5 rounds "In your pocket" or an M 14 with 5 rounds in a 20 round mag "In your pocket."

It would really do a lot of good if actually needed.

 

[Eb1]

I talked with my dad regarding his time in Vietnam.

He said that inside the lines you carried you rifle and or sidearm empty, and when you went into a tent you had to show that you magazine was unloaded, and then you had to snap off into a "fire pit" to make sure you chamber was unloaded before you could enter with you weapon.. They had "fire pits" dug out by the doors, and you just put your muzzle into the hole, and pulled the trigger. To let the MPs or whoever was standing guard that your gun was empty.

He said they had a lot of trouble with people carrying hot, and back then there were still trouble between races. Even told me a story about where a there was a fight over a rigged card game, and someone grabbed a rifle and it went off. It deflated his air bed on his cot, and struck the guy next to him.

He, my father, is really confused why they would give the Afgan police force loaded weapons during the ceremony. He can't understand why any of those men were shot because that is not they way they did things back then, and it shouldn't have ever happened.
That the only time you went hot is when the sirens went off, and you got into your fox holes. Each fox hole had four clay-moore ready to go, and you loaded up on your way to or when you got into your fox hole.

 

[Cluster Bomb]

A hammer.

 

[Reloadron]

My heart goes out to the newer troops. I was never aware of some of the rules and regulations governing loaded weapons or for that matter carrying ammunition. We had politics in Vietnam but I can't recall some of the stuff being as stupid as what I read here. We did have the now declassified and infamous "Rules of Engagement"

The rules of engagement (ROE) used during the war in Southeast Asia continue to be one of the most controversial aspects of that conflict. ROE are intended to reduce the chance of friendly fire incidents and recognize international law regarding the conduct of war, particularly the need to protect civilians, but in Vietnam they became a political tool as well. The restrictions these rules placed on commanders and individual fighting men became a frustrating and costly example of micromanagement taken to the highest level.

However, for the better part many broke the rules. Seems today they have taken things to a new level of stupid and we have learned nothing.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[DougW]

My son and his wife are on a large NATO Base in Afghanistan, and they are carrying locked and loaded. Their command has them in conditin red anytime they are out of their quarters. I can say with confidence that my son has a second mag on him at all times. Good thing is that he is more comfortable that way anyway.

 

[CSC_Saint]

When I passed through Bargram air base when I forst arrived in Afghanistan in summer 2010, my guys and myself did not get issued ammo the entire time at the base. It wasn't until i caught up to the rest of my unit on the other side of the country that I finally got ammo. This after they said mount up, your rollin out in like 20 mins, and I said, but I don't have no bullets for my pea shooter first sergeant. He couldn't believe I had spent two weeks in country without a single bullet. The Chair Force dudes told us to put an empty mag in our rifles so the locals that work on the base didnt know the difference. Are you serious?! So me and my guys decided that if things went down, we were gonna take the first air force dudes ammo that we could find, not like they know how to use 'em anyway.

 

[YankeeFlyr]

Beirut

My understanding is that in Beirut, in 1983, at least the first echelon of Marines didn't have magazines inserted in the M16A1s at the outer checkpoints.

Anything changed?