When civil rights don't exist...

[OF]

while infanticide would be viewed as reasonable by others.

I guess that's one way to stop behavior. This poor girls 'behavior' that needed changing was getting raped by her brothers. After she made that mistake, her next behavior that needed changing was refusing to kill herself.

I could care less whatsomeone's opinion on something is, whether they find it 'reasonable' or not. Like Oleg, it all comes down to freedom and individual rights. If you choose of your own free will to accept and be beholden to a set of cultural or religious mores, that may include asking for your suicide, and you kill yourself, that's your choice. But you do not get to, as a society or group, decide that people are going to have to participate in your customs, barbaric or otherwise, against their individual will.

Freedom and individual rights. You either believe in it or you don't.

- Gabe

 

[chaim]

THAT is interesting in itself. Shinui isn't an anti-Orthodox party

Then why do most of their pronouncements solely attack Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox parties (for those here who don't know Israel there are political parties to represent pretty much every small interest group- from about a dozen religious parties, to Arab interests, to secular interests, to outright Communists, Anarchists,etc).

As for the dropping state sponsored Orthodox schools that is especially telling. For those who don't know the education system in Israel there are a few truly private schools (but not many). The state provides funds for about a dozen school systems, from National Religious (Zionist and Orthodox), to purely secular, to basically Communist, to Arab, to "Black Hat" (Yeshivish and Chassidic) Orthodox. Many of these systems, like large systems everywhere, are corrupt. Yet the only one they attack are the Orthodox schools. Incidentally most of the religious schools do indeed teach math (all of the National Religious schools teach secular studies, and the Haredi teach the minimum the state requires). With all the dozens of school systems, and abuses in most, Shinui is only calling for cutting off Orthodox schools, yet somehow they aren't anti-Orthodox???

On other subjects, Orthodox and National Orthodox Jews are different.

The latter join the Army, found settlements, and support the RKBA (a rare thing here).

The former dodge the draft

Please do try to be more honest.

Some Orthodox in Israel (most Haredi) do not get drafted. Full-time study in Yeshiva is one of about a dozen catagories that provides a draft excemption. Most Orthodox men, in Israel and in the US, spend many years in Yeshiva (it is not so they don't have to serve, it is because we believe in learning and serving G-d). Honestly taking a deferrment that is there is not really "dodging".

Additionally many Orthodox do indeed serve. The National Religious are Orthodox. Last numbers I saw are that about 30% of the total officer corps is National Religious while 50+% of the junior officers (those under 30) are National Religious (Orthodox). Additionally, many serve as enlisted soldiers, and they disproportionally serve in combat units. Also, before you change your attack to "only" the Haredi let me point out the unit in Nahal (an infantry unit BTW) that is a Haredi unit, an entire unit made up of Haredi, and a handful have always served in National Religious units (I personally know a few Haredi who have served in National Religious units). Heck, there is even a very popular set-up where people can split their time between Yeshiva and their unit in the Army.

We are as likely as non-religious Jews to own guns and support gun ownership (most of the Orthodox Jews I know from Israel own guns), and settlements (while I won't get into if they are a good or bad thing) are not a religious only thing (there are plenty of secular settlements).

They have also distributed leaflets promoting death penalty...

Here I won't comment on whether it exists or not since I've never seen it and it is pretty much impossible to prove something's non-existance. However, I will point out a few things about the death penalty in Jewish law, something either you don't know, or you are being intentionally misleading since outside Jewish practices the "death penalty" has a very different meaning.

First, there are many things under Jewish Law (Halacha) that deserve the death penalty (including breaking the sabbath). We do not go around killing sabbath breakers (and never really have). What it means is that certain behavior deserves the death penalty. However, G-d, not us, administers it. If you do something requiring the death penalty you may well die prematurely (when born we all have a set number of years, an experation date so to speak, and if we do too many sins, especially certain kinds, we may die earlier). Also, when there is a human administered death penalty (there hasn't been in thousands of years) it is very strict. There must be 2 witnesses who warn the transgressor that they see the action and that it is a death penalty offense. Even so a beis din is very hesitant to institute the death penalty to the degree that a beis din (Jewish court) that puts someone to death more than once every seventy years is blood thirsty.

So, even if true, the meaning is very different from what you are implying here.

 

[Betty]

Let's get back to the topic, shall we?

 

[chaim]

Sorry Betty, I just can't let an outright attack on my religion go unanswered (the comment leading to it was a charge that Orthodox Jews are "almost as brutal" in similar cases which more than implied was that we are violent and engage in "honor killings"- an outright lie). I am willing to let it go now, but I will have to respond to any more false charges (it is a religious obligation- I am not allowed to let lies about my religion go unanswered, especially in a setting where people might believe those lies, remember that throughout the centuries millions of us were murdered over people believing slanderous lies about us so we don't take this lightly). I hope you understand and I do apologize for helping to bring this off topic.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Then why do most of their pronouncements solely attack Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox parties

Because these parties oppose separation of church (synagogue) and state. IIRC the National Orthodox (as you call it, the National Religious) Party (MAFDAL) is allied with Shinui.

AND: None of the "other" educational systems should be gov-funded IMHO. One government - one government school system. Note though that ONLY the Orthodox (aka Haredi) school system was sued by it's students for malpractice (you may do this in this country).

We are as likely as non-religious Jews to own guns and support gun ownership

In fact more so. I take your point. Of course, 99.999999% of Israelis think gun control is a good idea.:banghead:

So, even if true, the meaning is very different from what you are implying here.

"These women should be shot" sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Full-time study in Yeshiva is one of about a dozen catagories that provides a draft excemption.

Note to foreigners: Full-time study in University does not.

/end off-topic rant.

 

[chaim]

MB, thank you for toning it down a bit. Since you've toned it down, I can too. Maybe this can be our last such exchange on this thread- I don't wish for you and I to cause the moderators to have to shut down this thread (since this is an off-topic discussion).

Anyway, for the pamphlets, I again direct you to my partial discussion on death penalty offenses. Additionally, for a human death penalty the Temple must be standing, and in addition to the two witnesses and the warning a chance must be given for the person to change their behavior. So taking a pamphlet, that might exist, that if it does was written for an audience that understands all the nuances of what it means to deserve the death penalty (thus they were speaking academically and not calling for wholesale slaughter) is at best misleading (though I am willing to grant that you weren't intentionally misleading).

Just to end this let me jump to your last point. It is unfortunately true that University studies is not an eligible catagory for deferement. It should be. However, taking that injustice and then arguing for another isn't the right track (yeshiva students should be encouraged to study in yeshiva plus most aren't really physically fit enough- though personally I'd have nothing wrong with a Haredi administered Hesder Yeshiva system). Especially today when many who are eligible for the draft either aren't drafted or are drafted for a shorter period than in the past, most Americans would be shocked to learn that the Israeli military has been drawing down a bit. The smarter, and fairer, solution would be to work to get university study included as eligible for deferrement.

Anyway, let us end this discussion now (especially on what for both of us has been a bit more concilliatory a note) before we get this thread shut down. If you want to continue then please PM me, but I doubt if we'll really change each other's minds.