Why am I so much worse on paper targets?

[Snaps]

I've been really noticing this lately, I can't shoot nearly as well on paper. Handguns, rifles, irons, scopes whatever.

I just took my Glock 30 and my HK Tactical with 100 rd of ammo down to the range and set up 25yrd targets. My paper targets are all over the place even out of the black but I was roughly 45/50 on bowling pins and soda cans/bottles, boards, whatever I could find to shoot.


I'm going to hope I'm not the only one with this problem or somebody can tell me what the hell is wrong with me. It's the same thing when I move down range on rifles. I can hit little tiny pieces of junk ontop of the targets every time but my paper is everywhere.

 

[rde]

Can't answer your question. Because I have a very similar problem. Hope someone can help us.

 

[shermacman]

I think it is 'target acquisition'. I can hit Coke cans at 50 yards off-hand with a pistol easily. I can not hit the same size area on a paper target as accurately. The cans are a more interesting target, easier to focus, I know it is purely psychological. Try those expensive shoot-n-see targets. They may make a difference.

 

[pahrumpcaveman]

I suffer from the same affliction . It's a mental thing with me, I like to see something break and fly up in the air . We just need more practice on paper instead of junk . A friend of mine often gives me sh&t about always shooting at garbage , but then he too partakes in the shooting of junk .

 

[TallPine]

Gophers: the ultimate reactive target

 

[Steve in PA]

Its a mind thing. I have one officer who can keep all his shots in a good group at 21yds. Have him take a step or two back and they go to pot.

Just takes more range time.

 

[1911Ron]

Try a target that has a bullseye that is in contrast to the rest of it. I've read where some spec op types that use a 3x5 card, on the regular bullseye for contrast to the black backround

 

[Treylis]

I have the exact same thing happen--I shoot at shook-up cans of root beer or the like, and I'm right on target, very good groups. I get on paper and I'm all over the map. After a lot of warm-up I start to get better on paper, but, man, the disparity is just surprising.

This is only with pistols, though. I do quite well on both with rifles.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Same here.
I think with any target that gives satisfying, immediate feed back like a pin or my personal favorite, a large chunk of river ice, we go into the 'zone' more. Less thinking, more instinct. Anticipating the results takes our minds off worrying about recoil or trigger controll. Plain paper is the worst. Shoot'n see are better at short range.
I had a HK Tactical that I was OK with on paper at 25 yards. One day I 'gave' myself three rounds to hit a 5" chunk of sandstone at 50 yards. Shot #2 dusted it.
At my range I like to 'weed' the 50 yard berm, usually half a magazine will chop any plant.
Just don't ask me to hit a black bullseye too often at that distance.
BTW, a large block of ice will give you a pretty good idea of the power of various calibers.
A solid hit with a .357 or 10mm will give a rainbow of ice crystals on a sunny day.

 

[Valkman]

25 yards is an awful long distance to shoot at and mantain small groups - no matter what you read around here there's not that many that can do it. If you really want to get better it takes alot of practice, and it takes learning alot about stance and trigger control. Either move in closer until you get better at grouping, or stay at 25 yds and just keep practicing!

 

[Dave Markowitz]

What kind of target were you using at 25 yards? If it was a life-size silhoutte, you may be running into the problem that you dont' have a consistent aiming point. Try a smaller target, e.g., a bullseye, that will give you a smaller aiming point. This will force you to concentrate on putting the rounds on target in a smaller area.

 

[KMKeller]

Aim small, miss small. Focus on the absolute center of the target, rather than the black.

 

[knzn]

Paper just don't lie! Speaking for myself anyway, if I am shooting at say pop cans at 100 yd's I only remember the hits, and the misses are forever invisible. On paper they are there for all to see.

 

[Werewolf]

Paper just don't lie! Speaking for myself anyway, if I am shooting at say pop cans at 100 yd's I only remember the hits, and the misses are forever invisible. On paper they are there for all to see.

Ding! Ding! - Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

 

[DMK]

I agree with Dave Markowitz, try a target with a smaller bullseye. Like KMKeller said above: Aim small, miss small.

 

[Tamara]

With a paper target, it's all too easy to aim at the paper, and not the bullseye. Tape a 3x5 card or a white paper plate to the cardboard target backer and watch your groups magically shrink to the size of the available target.

With the coke can, you're aiming at The Can, not the "rough geometrical center of a three square foot area surrounding the can."

As was said above: Aim small, miss small.

 

[M67]

Paper just don't lie! Speaking for myself anyway, if I am shooting at say pop cans at 100 yd's I only remember the hits, and the misses are forever invisible. On paper they are there for all to see.

We have a winner!

I'll second that.

If you want to do something depressing, record each shot in a training diary. That'll show you how bad you really are, at least that's how it works for me.

 

[Mad Man]

Paper just don't lie! Speaking for myself anyway, if I am shooting at say pop cans at 100 yd's I only remember the hits, and the misses are forever invisible. On paper they are there for all to see.

We have a winner!

I'll second that.

If you want to do something depressing, record each shot in a training diary. That'll show you how bad you really are, at least that's how it works for me.

I agree with everything above.

Also -- and this depends on where/how you're shooting the cans and bottles: are you actually hitting the targets, or the ground near them?

Where I used to shoot, on the side of a hill, it was very easy to get the targets to react without actually having to hit them. Hit the ground near them, and they'd fly into the air. Sit them on a fallen tree stump, and all we had to do was hit the stump.

I wasted a lot of years fooling myself into thinking I was a great shot.

 

[Mad Man]

25 yards is an awful long distance to shoot at and mantain small groups - no matter what you read around here there's not that many that can do it. If you really want to get better it takes alot of practice, and it takes learning alot about stance and trigger control. Either move in closer until you get better at grouping, or stay at 25 yds and just keep practicing!

Read http://john-ross.net/newbies.htm (You can skip the first half, and scroll down to "SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THOSE STILL READING", but the whole thing is worth reading).

I was following this advice -- except using paper on stands instead of reactive targets -- my ability to consistantly make one large hole with 30 shots from my .22 pistol radidly improved.

Unlike shooting at 50 feet, I noticed that I could fire 10 rounds, and then immediately see the results while what I did was still fresh in my mind. This near-instant feedback allowed me to figure out what my mistakes were, and spend a lot more time shooting rather than going back-and-forth to the target to see how I did. This eventually translated in an improved ability to shoot other handguns at farther distances.

[DELETED: off-topic rant]

 

[Fed168]

Well, Keller stole my thunder. It sounds like a case of "bull gazing", staring at the bullseye or the target as opposed to the front sight. Keep your basics of marksmanship in mind, and keep staring at the front sight, smooth press on the trigger.

 

[JohnKSa]

Coupla things.

1. The smaller the aiming point (within reason) the smaller the groups tend to be.

2. Paper records every single shot. You can't gloss over the misses, and you find that some you thought were close were actually way off the map.

Plinking is fun and a somewhat useful exercise, but there's not much better than paper for training and for improving your shooting.

 

[Valkman]

Read http://john-ross.net/newbies.htm (You can skip the first half, and scroll down to "SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THOSE STILL READING", but the whole thing is worth reading).

Good stuff - I hadn't seen that before. I noticed he talks about starting close in and moving back as you get more proficient. I was going to recommend that, exept the range that I shot at frowned on any target inside of 25 yards. It was a Bullseye range, not a blasting range, so even n00bs like I was had to stay at that distance and just practice and get better. I think that moving in and gaining confidence is important.

When I started at 25 yds with a Ruger MKII I was scoring in the 30's and 40's, and it took a long time and a switch to a S&W M41 to achieve a score of 90. To this day I'm more comfortable shooting one-handed than two because of all that shooting.

I'd do what I did when I had trouble hitting anything with my 640 - move in until you shoot a tight group, then work your way back. As your groups open up you can stop at that distance and practice, then move back some more. Just walking up to the 25 yd line and expecting to shoot 1" groups is unrealistic, but with proper stance, breathing and sight picture you can get close to that.

 

[Tamara]

I think we're talking past each other, here...

Also -- and this depends on where/how you're shooting the cans and bottles: are you actually hitting the targets, or the ground near them?

The hole (and the metallic *thwack!* if you're using an air pistol or .22) is usually a pretty fair indicator. If you fill them with water, like I sometimes enjoy doing, the can splitting open and the fountain of water geysering skyward are also telltale clues. Another fun reactive target is clay pigeons in "lollipop" holders. Steel spinners are fun, too. So is shooting spent shotgun shells or rifle brass off of the 15yd target holder.

Obviously, not everyone lives in a place where they can grab a target air pistol and "trim weeds" in the garden or blow hovering bees from the sky, but this is good trigger time, too.

None of this is obviously perfect training for a bullseye match, but you can definitely tell if you've hit the target. The problem can occur if you transition from these kind of targets to, say, a B27. It can be hard to shoot a perfect group into the center of some amorphous black blob if you can't even decide where the center is to return your sight picture to from shot to shot. Most folks will shoot much better groups on, say, a round bull or using a target spot than they will when using a B27 or cardboard IPSC target. Then again, the latter two targets were not designed for "shooting groups."

Sometimes a focus on "groups" can be funny. A former acquaintance was shooting one of his smallbore target rifles with some Remington .22 Target ammo. He was griping about what "crap ammo" it was, since it "wouldn't group." He asked if I wanted to try it. Suspecting that the trouble with the ammo could more readily be attributed to a loose trigger nut, I accepted. He put three 3" Shoot 'N' Sees on a piece of typing paper and ran it out to 25 yards. I ain't the worlds best shot, but a lot of time spent shooting indoor three-position smallbore wasn't completely wasted on me. I squinted through the diopter sights, and blew the "10" right out of each of the three targets, one shot each, and ran the target back in. "Doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with it to me," I mused.
"Well, see how you can group with it!" he huffed back.
"Stack the three bullseyes on top of each other and see for yourself," I sweetly replied.

 

[sendec]

PO2 has it--

Reactive targets provide immediate positive feedback that is unambiguous and intuitively understood. You immediately and unconciously know when you are hitting and are able to "loop" your behaviors for consistency. You unconciously modify your actions so that they are consistently rewarded by the immediate clang of the plate or pin dropping.

Paper targets, especially those at distance, require concious analysis that is not contiguous to the action - you have to stop shooting and score the target. At 25 yards typically the holes are too small to see. Make a concious effort to NOT look at the target but consistently hold focus on the front sight in the same location and see how you do. Trying to "score" while shooting requires a mental shift that is counterproductive. You do not even need a bull per se, just hold consistently at the same point in space.

Interesting thread and comments