Why is the .35 whelen max pressure so low?

[wombat13]

The Hodgdon load data on their website shows the .338-06 producing higher velocity than the .35 whelen with the same weight bullets. According to Hodgdon, w760 will produce 2,675 fps with a 225 grain bullet in the .338-06 while 8208xbr will produce 2,618 with a 225 grain bullet in the .35 whelen (these are the highest velocities listed for each). Using the same powder, imr 4895, produces 2,594 fps in .338-06 but only 2,553 in .35 whelen.

This seems counter-intuitive to me. Both have the same case capacity and the .35 has a larger area for the gas to push against which should produce higher velocity.

The culprit appears to be that the maximum allowable pressure for .35 whelen is 50,000 cup while the max pressure for the .338-06 is 63,000 psi (according to the Hodgdon load data). According to the following source, 50,000 cup is equal to about 58,000 psi.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

So why would .338-06 have a higher allowable pressure than the .35 whelen? Both started as wildcats off the .30-06 case, so they will be chambered in the same rifles.

 

[boom boom]

My personal guess is that the .35 Whelen was originally chambered in converted Springfield 03's (leaving aside the 1917 rifles so converted) that had been rebarrelled post WWI. When you do such a thing, it is generally prudent to keep the pressures roughly equivalent to the original pressures or less. The era in which the Whelen was developed also probably leads to caution as a lot of early wildcats were developed using crude pressure measurement techniques with large error rates.

A quick scan through loaddata.com regarding the Whelen indicates that most all of the reloading manuals have the .35 Whelen loaded to below 50000 cup where pressure is specified. There is probably a good reason for that.
From loaddata, Nosler apparently does has some reloading data using their 200 grain bullets that get to around 2700 fps in the Whelen if that is your cup of tea and roughly comparable loads to the .338-06 using their heavier bullets. Nosler may be your best reloading guide in this case but YMMV.

 

[wombat13]

boom boom - thanks for your reply. I noticed that Nosler shows .35 whelen max velocities about 200 fps faster than .338-06 in the same bullet weight, however, the .35 whelen data is from a 26" barrel and the .338-06 is from a 24" barrel. How much difference would the 2" make?

 

[jerkface11]

It's an older cartridge and has a lower pressure rating to remain safe in older guns. .338-06 wasn't standardized until fairly recently so it has a higher pressure rating.

 

[murf]

saami max pressure for the 35 whelen is 52,000 cup. the saami max pressure for the 338-06 is 53,000 cup. i don't see the problem here.

murf

 

[MCMXI]

SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for the .35 Whelen is 62,000 psi. This is stated in their Velocity and Pressure Data - Transducer.

 

[Slamfire]

Using the same powder, imr 4895, produces 2,594 fps in .338-06 but only 2,553 in .35 whelen

I have chronographed enough loads to say, a 41 fps difference in velocities is hardly worth bothering about.

To date, I have not broken 2500 fps with a 250 in my 35 Whelen. Let me tell you, firing heavy bullets at these velocities hurts!

35 Whelen 24” Douglas 1:10 Twist

250 Hornady SP 54.0 grs IMR 4895 wtd Lot L7926 CCI 200
OAL 3.27" (below cannulure) necked up R-P 30-06

22 Oct 2014 T = 63 °F

Ave Vel = 2353
Std Dev = 14
ES = 35
High = 2369
Low = 2334
N = 5

Easy bolt lift, pain, pain, pain


250 Hornady SP 55.0 grs IMR 4895 wtd Lot L7926 CCI 200
OAL 3.27" (below cannulure) necked up R-P 30-06

22 Oct 2014 T = 63 °F

Ave Vel = 2413
Std Dev = 3
ES = 5
High = 2415
Low = 2410
N = 3

Extremely unbearable pain!!

 

[MCMXI]

Let me tell you, firing heavy bullets at these velocities hurts!

Are you talking about the .35 Whelen specifically or weights/velocities in general. I shoot a 250gr .375 cal bullet out of my Talkeetna (.375 H&H) at 2,800 fps but there's no pain. The rifle and scope weigh 9lb so that obviously helps. If the rifle weighed 6lb I might not be so comfortable.

 

[judgedelta]

If you need that much speed, perhaps you should step back and reconsider a .338 Win. Mag.? As I understand it, the .35 Whelan was designed to push a heavy bullet at a leisurely speed, good to probably a max of 300 yds...

 

[Kp321]

The 35 Whelan was factory chambered in the Remington 760 which does not do well with high pressure loadings, primary extraction weak. The SAAMI standards might reflect this chambering.

 

[jmorris]

I have chronographed enough loads to say, a 41 fps difference in velocities is hardly worth bothering about.

Yep, you can get that difference from the same exact load made at the same time. Make a batch in July and chronograph half at the time then the other half six months later.

 

[35 Whelen]

I've done quite a bit of load development for the Whelen in two rifles; my own custom built on a VZ-24 action with a 24" Douglas barrel, and my Dad's Remington 700 Classic with a 22" barrel.

The VZ Whelen is somewhat handicapped with a short-ish magazine which somewhat limits cartridge length and powder capacity. Even at that I achieved ~2700 fps with 225 gr. Noslers, Sierra's and Barnes TSX's. The Barnes is a VERY accurate bullet and worked extremely well on elk penetrating like crazy. The load I settled on ran a little under 2700 but the bulls I killed didn't seem to notice, even the last one that was a hair over 350 yds.



The Remington 700 has a very generous length magazine thus allowing bullets to be seated out. I didn't do much work with 225 gr. bullets in this rifle, rather used 250 gr. bullets. Both the Nosler Partition and Speer SP shot very well and I was able to break 2500 fps easily and loads were quite accurate as this series of groups show:



The Remington is a very light rifle and therefore recoil is something to be reckoned with.

Varget and Re15 are the Whelens best friends. Don't obsess over recommended chamber pressures unless you have a way to measure them. Your rifle will be unique and you need to work your loads up slowly watching for pressure signs. With the two powders mentioned, I usually run out of space for the powder in the case before pressures get out of hand. Just make sure you chronograph and work up slowly.

35W