Domestic and Wild Animal Instincts

Larry Lewyn said:

I know you guys are going to think I'm weird. I probably have too much time on my hands and recently I started thinking about animal instincts. I know that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, but how does that beat out hundreds of thousands of years when it comes to DNA programming? How do kittens and puppies just happen to have the exact right meows or growls to attact human sympathy and attention? What is the difference between wolves and dogs - they look alike sort of but wolves stay wild and dogs lie in your bed with you. I'm not saying that Rover never thought about eating you, but it's not very likely. Why won't Wolfie watch TV with you and behave? And what about Kitty? If she were 5 times bigger, I'd definitely look over my shoulder. I've watch the same fun kittie that lies in my lap at night tear a bird to pieces and play with the parts. Does anybody else think that's strange? Something to ponder when you're bored.

Click to expand...

I think that the majority of these instincts are either A.) bread out of the animal over centuries or B.) nullified through their upbringing. Even domesticated breeds can act wild if they're not given the proper social interaction with people and other animals as well as not having an Alpha parent to correct the improper behaviors.

Part of domesticating an animal is selective breeding. Those first wolves that crept into the camp of our long gone ancestors had some non-aggressive genes to start with and a desire to be fed by someone else. They may have even been driven out of their former pack and looking for another pack to join....even if it were a human pack. Once adopted, it's descendants were scrutinized and if aggressive behavior shown, destroyed or abandoned. Thus man helped evolution by allowing only those animals not showing aggression towards them to live. Same with cattle, horses and other domestic species. Animals that were relatively passive to start with were the easiest to domesticate. Some animals just weren't worth the effort. Rabbits are a fine example. Domestic rabbites can be bred and live their whole lives in captivity. Catch a wild rabbit and put it in a pen and it will probably be dead within a week. Those instincts you talk about that are so endearing to humans from dogs, have also be selectively bred to continue in the species, or from hybrids that exhibited them. If one has four dogs(two pairs), two that show no desire to please humans and two that do, which ones do responsible breeders generally mate? Look at any advertisement for hunting dogs and you will see the claim, "Our pups display strong desire to please owners and willingness to learn".

Wild animals that do not display wild tendencies, generally are shot off or eaten by predators early in life and not allowed to breed. A example of how Mother Nature selectively breeds her fauna.

Larry Lewyn said:

I know that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, but how does that beat out hundreds of thousands of years when it comes to DNA programming?

Click to expand...

Good word choice - Think about computer programming: your computer will do exactly the same thing - let's say, when you press the G key, it responds by displaying a G - and it does that day in, day out, until one day, you RE-program it such when you push the G key on the keyboard, it types a B. Forever onward, it will respond to the "G" key by displaying a B, negating thousands and thousands of iterations prior to the programming change which displayed a G. Think about what other "DNA programming" we have modified about domestic species - if all dogs used to look like wolves/coyotes/fox, we have selectively bred (aka "reprogrammed") them to produce genetically unique breeds, many of which look nothing at all like what had to have been their genetic ancestors, and nothing like their modern day cousins. We effectively reprogrammed wolves to NOT look like wolves, but rather have some look like Rottweilers and some look like Jack Russell Terriers... If we can change their physical appearance that much via breeding, what makes you think their brains aren't changed as well?

The biggest trait difference which separates wild canines and domestic is a genetic trigger for brain development. I saw a study around 15yrs ago which showed brain scans of captured wolves and coyotes, adults and pups, compared to that of domestic dogs and pups. The brain scan comparison for pups vs. adults is very different for wild species, and not so for domesticated canines. Effectively, we've bred them to stay "puppies" their entire lives - dependent upon us and ultimately trainable.

I just wish I could teach my cat to hunt...

Danoobie, house cats go feral the moment they go outdoors. The problem is that they don't retrieve worth a hoot.

REALLY? Why 60 years in the country, and I had absolutely no idea! I don't know what's better, the flaming rush
everybody's in to contradict somebody else, or how they purposely misconstrue a simple concept.

Larry Lewyn said:

I know you guys are going to think I'm weird. I probably have too much time on my hands and recently I started thinking about animal instincts. I know that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, but how does that beat out hundreds of thousands of years when it comes to DNA programming? How do kittens and puppies just happen to have the exact right meows or growls to attact human sympathy and attention? What is the difference between wolves and dogs - they look alike sort of but wolves stay wild and dogs lie in your bed with you. I'm not saying that Rover never thought about eating you, but it's not very likely. Why won't Wolfie watch TV with you and behave? And what about Kitty? If she were 5 times bigger, I'd definitely look over my shoulder. I've watch the same fun kittie that lies in my lap at night tear a bird to pieces and play with the parts. Does anybody else think that's strange? Something to ponder when you're bored.

Click to expand...

Take a hundred of the friendliest domesticated dogs you ever met, turn them loose in a remote wooded area. Go back a year later - but make sure you have company and all have guns. Attacks by packs of stray dogs are quite common all over the country.

Works the same way with a "domestic" cat - once they have fended for themselves for a period of time they become wild and "dangerous" (for their size).

Remember they helped domesticat us too. At one time man probably killed everything he could to have a meal, dogs and cats included.

Art Eatman said:

Danoobie, house cats go feral the moment they go outdoors. The problem is that they don't retrieve worth a hoot.

Click to expand...

Dang.....I thought retrieval would be an issue too........

Dunno about that; a few cats my family have had over the last half century plus would bring home and drop these "presents" on the doorstep - sometimes with loud vocalization. You open the door, look down at some mouse or bird, with kitty looking up, and utter something like, "uuh, gee.. thanks".

RPZ, I feel fortunate that the housecats I've had through the years weren't so proudly generous.

A next door neighbor became a "cat lady", much to the detriment of song birds and squirrels. Fortunately, old age won out and they're recovering somewhat.

It's rather intriguing to watch a somnolent housecat have its instinct to hunt triggered by small moving objects, whether a mouse or a piece of paper on the end of a string.

I've read that hogs are fully feral and physically regress in some three or four generations.

Back about 20 or 30 years ago, ranchers along the lower Rio Grande had problems with feral cattle in the canebrakes along the river. Hostile bulls even charged at pickup trucks. A ton of hostile wild bull can provide a good bit of excitement.

Curiousity: Is the defensive posture of bison and musk ox instinctive or learned?

Art Eatman said:

RPZ, I feel fortunate that the housecats I've had through the years weren't so proudly generous.

A next door neighbor became a "cat lady", much to the detriment of song birds and squirrels. Fortunately, old age won out and they're recovering somewhat.

It's rather intriguing to watch a somnolent housecat have its instinct to hunt triggered by small moving objects, whether a mouse or a piece of paper on the end of a string.

I've read that hogs are fully feral and physically regress in some three or four generations.

Back about 20 or 30 years ago, ranchers along the lower Rio Grande had problems with feral cattle in the canebrakes along the river. Hostile bulls even charged at pickup trucks. A ton of hostile wild bull can provide a good bit of excitement.

Curiousity: Is the defensive posture of bison and musk ox instinctive or learned?

Click to expand...

On the musk ox bison note, it's a little of both, some calves will stand their ground from the day their born in a stance that is VERY effective and though they're not much threat to larger predators, they're still capable of doing damage to us weaker beings. Others are more prone to flight until learning the power of the herd's defense and thus grow their confidence. The herd of bison I worked with demonstrated that the bull calves were more likely to become aggressive quickly, but usually stopped after a good bluff or a few rapid contact moments and then run off bawling for mama. Heifers on the other hand were more likely to attempt evasion BUT once they decided to fight back, they were MUCH more dedicated than the bulls.

Art Eatman said:

RPZ, I feel fortunate that the housecats I've had through the years weren't so proudly generous.

A next door neighbor became a "cat lady", much to the detriment of song birds and squirrels. Fortunately, old age won out and they're recovering somewhat.

It's rather intriguing to watch a somnolent housecat have its instinct to hunt triggered by small moving objects, whether a mouse or a piece of paper on the end of a string.

I've read that hogs are fully feral and physically regress in some three or four generations.

Back about 20 or 30 years ago, ranchers along the lower Rio Grande had problems with feral cattle in the canebrakes along the river. Hostile bulls even charged at pickup trucks. A ton of hostile wild bull can provide a good bit of excitement.

Curiousity: Is the defensive posture of bison and musk ox instinctive or learned?

Click to expand...

I have had a second thought; perhaps they were not bringing a present, maybe they expected to eat inside like the rest of the family.

buck460XVR said:

Rabbits are a fine example. Domestic rabbites can be bred and live their whole lives in captivity. Catch a wild rabbit and put it in a pen and it will probably be dead within a week.

Click to expand...

It is worth noting that domestic rabbits are not desended from the wild "rabbits" of the US(cottontails are actually a kind of hare). Totally different species(the European rabbit) with a totally different lifecycle/lifestyle.

Vince Cyr said:

It is worth noting that domestic rabbits are not desended from the wild "rabbits" of the US(cottontails are actually a kind of hare). Totally different species(the European rabbit) with a totally different lifecycle/lifestyle.

Click to expand...

Never said Domestic rabbits were descendants of Cottontails. Just said they were different. Still, Cottontails are NOT a hare, but a true rabbit.

I have no idea about cats; cats aren't domesticated, they have domesticated some humans. But dogs are social animals-a pack animal. We are their pack. In every pack, there is an alfa male and an alfa female. You as the owner are (or need to be) the alfa. The members of a pack will instinctvely know their position subject to the alfa. They will challenge others (human or canine) "intruding" on the packs territory, (unless we yell or beat it out of them) and react to the interloper's reaction. That said, I had a friend who had his Black Lab (usually a docile breed) try to rip his throat out unexpectedly. He taught me 1.) Never fear a dog. 2.) Learn how to kill one unarmed. You will take damage to an arm, but it beats your throat. He had to kill his beloved Lab right when it attacked him. I have stared down Pinchers, Rottweilers, and even a Great Dane. It's the same motto I follow, whether concerning dogs or people; Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

horsey300 said:

On the musk ox bison note, it's a little of both, some calves will stand their ground from the day their born in a stance that is VERY effective and though they're not much threat to larger predators, they're still capable of doing damage to us weaker beings. Others are more prone to flight until learning the power of the herd's defense and thus grow their confidence. The herd of bison I worked with demonstrated that the bull calves were more likely to become aggressive quickly, but usually stopped after a good bluff or a few rapid contact moments and then run off bawling for mama. Heifers on the other hand were more likely to attempt evasion BUT once they decided to fight back, they were MUCH more dedicated than the bulls.

Click to expand...

My former landlord's wife needed a lot of surgery and recovery after a cow attacked her when they were cutting calves. They can be vicious. OTOH, my 10 year old nephew (20 some years ago) pulled the bull's nose ring in the pasture.

buck460XVR said:

, Cottontails are NOT a hare, but a true rabbit.

Click to expand...

American cottontail belongs to the genus Sylvilagus, which is geneticly closer to the jackrabbit and snowshoe hare than the rabbits the domestic ones are decended from(Oryctolagus). They make nests aboveground, like hares, their diet is like hares more than rabbits, and they are born with a full coat of hair, unlike rabbits, and more like hares. What makes them a "true rabbit", as you say.

Ran over a cottontail nest with my riding mower. Saw that I'd done that on the next pass by the nest. I'd mowed the ear tips off of a couple of 1/4-grown young'uns.

I think the instincts are amazing, especially when it applies to cats. A cat the size of a german shepherd is a puma. Think about that. I have a cat that has never been outside, The idiot thinks "outside" is just a big room he isn't allowed in. So he doesn't have a concept of the size of the world. Anyhow, this "home schooled" animal stalks insects that get in the house. He seeks out elevated positions to rest. He watches birds and squirrels outside the windows and flips out because he wants to kill and eat them. Did he "learn" this stuff watching nat geo on the couch with me? I think not. I read somewhere that only cats who have been exposed to humans make "meow" noises, but not sure if its true.

Selective breeding and upbringing are responsible for 90 percent of cat and dog behavior. Alter those two conditions and you've got a wild animal. I like dogs a lot. I have a very laid back and affectionate labrador retriever. But I'm under no illusions about what would happen if I mistreated her, took away human contact and let it go a generation.

1911 guy said:

I have a very laid back and affectionate labrador retriever.

Click to expand...

So did my friend Rich, right up until she tried to rip out his throat. He did not mistreat her, take away human contact, or let it go a generation......

entropy said:

I have no idea about cats; cats aren't domesticated, they have domesticated some humans. But dogs are social animals-a pack animal. We are their pack. In every pack, there is an alfa male and an alfa female. You as the owner are (or need to be) the alfa. The members of a pack will instinctvely know their position subject to the alfa. They will challenge others (human or canine) "intruding" on the packs territory, (unless we yell or beat it out of them) and react to the interloper's reaction. That said, I had a friend who had his Black Lab (usually a docile breed) try to rip his throat out unexpectedly. He taught me 1.) Never fear a dog. 2.) Learn how to kill one unarmed. You will take damage to an arm, but it beats your throat. He had to kill his beloved Lab right when it attacked him. I have stared down Pinchers, Rottweilers, and even a Great Dane. It's the same motto I follow, whether concerning dogs or people; Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.



My former landlord's wife needed a lot of surgery and recovery after a cow attacked her when they were cutting calves. They can be vicious. OTOH, my 10 year old nephew (20 some years ago) pulled the bull's nose ring in the pasture.

Click to expand...

Actually domestic cats can fall into the "pride" structure that is seen in lions. In the home environment though this rarely takes place. In the same context domestic dogs do not have the pack structure either. I do not know what the magic number is, but either one in sufficient numbers might go that way.

Domestic dogs which have gone feral will congregate in packs. Some years back we had a pack of eight or so in the desert around Terlingua. Attacked deer, at least one horse, and threatened a hiker.

In the 1970s a pack near Georgetown, Texas, killed some of a friend's sheep. One of the dogs that he managed to kill had a collar with a tag; the owner lived only a very few miles away.

I've read of dog-pack problems more in Alabama than from any other state.

Never been around enough cats to see that. (I'm allergic to them, which they sense and rub all on me....) Dogs will glom onto a person in their 'pack' and consider them their alfa. Not all dogs in a household will pick the same person, either. We have two dogs currently. One is mine , one my wife's. When I try to get him out of the room when she and I want some "alone time" , he'll growl at me.. Then she says "out", and he's gone...