So you think you know your M1 Garand

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hps1

hps1

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Well, as they say, you're never too old to learn. Been around St. Jean le Baptiste Cantius Garand's "greatest implement of battle ever devised" for 65 years and I thought I knew them inside and out but picked up a couple of features I had not fully appreciated from this video. Check it out; I'll bet you learn something, too. ;)



Regards,
hps
 
Yep, several things going on I didn't realize either. And anybody who runs a Garand... I'd say it's better to know it.
 
Way too cool, thank you for posting that. Very informative, I wouldn't have known to look for that, but thoroughly enjoyed it.
 
Pretty amazing. Particularly given how few springs are involved. Like how the recoil spring also powers the follower, and the maximum effort on the follower is right as the op rod ends its stroke.

Particularly fascinating is that the whole system was designed for 7x51, yet worked just as well in .30-06
(The only major change was the diameter of the barrel breach, which is why the Op Rod is "bent"; in .276, it was straight.)
 
CapnMac said:
Pretty amazing. Particularly given how few springs are involved. Like how the recoil spring also powers the follower, and the maximum effort on the follower is right as the op rod ends its stroke.
Click to expand...

Have never counted parts, but have been told that the Garand actually has fewer parts than a 1903 Springfield.

The Garand has only 6 springs. The clip release spring serves only that purpose. The bolt has two springs; the extractor detent spring and the ejector spring. All other springs serve at least a dual purpose. The safety/clip ejector spring is dual purpose, as is the hammer spring, which serves as a trigger and disconnect spring as well and the op-rod spring which as the Captn said serves as follower spring and operates clip latch and follower arm.

The two features I was not aware of are the nose of the hammer fitting into notch on bolt and forces bolt into battery and/or prevents hammer from contacting firing pin. I was also unaware that the bolt could be re-cocked by using trigger guard as a lever in event of a misfire.

A fine piece of machinery it is.

Regards,
hps
 
Good video.

That initial camming extraction along with a large and robust extractor must have played a pretty big part in maintaining reliability in combat conditions.

Some questions though since I do not know much about Garands and their offspring such as the M1A. There were box magazines when this rifle was developed so why did the Garand not incorporate one? Army design parameters? It would make sense to me that a box magazine would have simplified the design further without the integral follower and clip ejection operations being built in.
 
Great video. So they didn't train shooters blocking op rod handle with the loading hand while loading a clip to prevent Garand Thumb.
 
earlthegoat2 said:
Some questions though since I do not know much about Garands and their offspring such as the M1A. There were box magazines when this rifle was developed so why did the Garand not incorporate one? Army design parameters? It would make sense to me that a box magazine would have simplified the design further without the integral follower and clip ejection operations being built in.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Army specified enbloc clips for the new rifle. There were some good reasons for this. Box magazines force a higher shooting posture when firing prone, and are subject to damage. And, as Garandimal’s video shows, prepackaged, disposable clips are faster to load than box mags.
 
Rudolph31 said:
Yes, the Army specified enbloc clips for the new rifle. There were some good reasons for this. Box magazines force a higher shooting posture when firing prone, and are subject to damage. And, as Garandimal’s video shows, prepackaged, disposable clips are faster to load than box mags.
Click to expand...

Also, the M1 was officially adopted back in 1936, and was developed over a number of years. An internal magazine loaded by stripper clips was still considered best for infantry rifles back then. I would think that the en-bloc clip was kind of a compromise between a box magazine and stripper clips. Faster, but still top-loaded and more suitable for a battle rifle in foxholes and trenches and used for prone shooting.
It's interesting that some of the other semi-automatic battle rifles developed by other nations around WW2 had short detachable box magazines but were intended to be loaded with stripper clips just the same. Only one magazine was issued.
 
HankC said:
Great video. So they didn't train shooters blocking op rod handle with the loading hand while loading a clip to prevent Garand Thumb.
Click to expand...

We did in the '50's & 60's.

Regards,
hps
 
Old Stumpy said:
It's interesting that some of the other semi-automatic battle rifles developed by other nations around WW2 had short detachable box magazines but were intended to be loaded with stripper clips just the same. Only one magazine was issued.
Click to expand...

Even the M14 is designed for stripper clips.
 
Garandimal said:
What ain't necessarily so about the M1 Garand

​

:D
GR
Click to expand...


Interesting video, GR. Thanks for sharing. First discussion (@ 7.5 minute mark) that I have seen on the 7.62 magazine block online. I had a 7.62 M1 match Garand built in 1984 by a retired army armorer. When he shipped my rifle, it had no block and I asked him if it shouldn't. He said it was not necessary, and was correct until, after hundreds of rounds, it started jamming on the 7th round w/bullet point jammed at 12 o'clock above chamber. Finally realized what was going on when one day on a practice RF string the 7th round flew clear over top of rifle and landed on my shooting mat?? I eased the bolt open after the hammer dropped on the empty chamber and then compared the op-rod spring with a new one; it was 1/2" or so shorter. Replaced the spring and problem solved. The weakened op rod spring was not maintaining sufficient pressure on the last rounds in clip and they were sliding forward (due to recoil and the extra length of the 30-06 magazine box), thus allowed the bolt to get a "running start", hitting next cartridge hard enough to jam or even launch the cartridge out of the rifle.

The video also points out the danger of a slamfire resulting from a partially chambering a round . The following link takes you to a discussion on slamfires. It is well worth reading for anyone shooting the Garand.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7811043/m/7861067471?r=2251010671#2251010671

Regards,
hm
 
Mike (aka Bloke on the Range) has rather a lot of content on why Garand Ping! is not a thing. Some of which is hilarious for the fudd counter-reaction.

He makes an interesting argument that the Garand does not have "primary extraction" in that initial bolt rotation on unlock.
Mike is an industrial engineer, so, I believe I understand his "why" on that.
I believe, the issue is that the bolt can simply rotate around a stuck case, that, until the sloped camming surface actually starts driving the bolt backwards, that there is no displacement force on a stuck casing.

So, it's a fine engineering point. Ok, if the extractor claw "gripped" the case head, that might force the case to rotate. And, given the set of tolerances involved (a long list, claw slot tolerance, case diameter tolerance and thermal dimension recovery, and chamber dimensions, just to start) the case might actually twist in the chamber using M2 ball. Just not a good way to measure that in real life.

But, the fact that Garand thought about this as a feature, as something needful for the 7x51 (which was running about where a modern .280 does) is pretty fascinating.

To muddy the waters on the Mannlicher en bloc clips, Pedersen's toggle-locked design used them as well (if in a sub-ideal asymmetric form). The second iteration had a number of revisions, and a symmetrical en bloc was one of those. The third and last version actually used the Garand style (as we would recognise them today).

One of the other things few realize about the humble M-1 is that is was in service from 1936 until 1959, 23 years. 7.62nato versions were still in front line service until 1965.
 
I have seen this film more than a few times, especially at the CMP Advanced Maintenance Class, to which I went in 2015. The thing I caught back when was recocking the hammer by opening the trigger guard on a misfire. This was a great training film. My Dad told me about it from when he served in WWII and taught me key lessons in using the M1. Still my favorite rifle.
 
CapnMac said:
Mike (aka Bloke on the Range) has rather a lot of content on why Garand Ping! is not a thing. Some of which is hilarious for the fudd counter-reaction.

He makes an interesting argument that the Garand does not have "primary extraction" in that initial bolt rotation on unlock.
Mike is an industrial engineer, so, I believe I understand his "why" on that.
I believe, the issue is that the bolt can simply rotate around a stuck case, that, until the sloped camming surface actually starts driving the bolt backwards, that there is no displacement force on a stuck casing.

So, it's a fine engineering point. Ok, if the extractor claw "gripped" the case head, that might force the case to rotate. And, given the set of tolerances involved (a long list, claw slot tolerance, case diameter tolerance and thermal dimension recovery, and chamber dimensions, just to start) the case might actually twist in the chamber using M2 ball. Just not a good way to measure that in real life.

But, the fact that Garand thought about this as a feature, as something needful for the 7x51 (which was running about where a modern .280 does) is pretty fascinating.

To muddy the waters on the Mannlicher en bloc clips, Pedersen's toggle-locked design used them as well (if in a sub-ideal asymmetric form). The second iteration had a number of revisions, and a symmetrical en bloc was one of those. The third and last version actually used the Garand style (as we would recognise them today).

One of the other things few realize about the humble M-1 is that is was in service from 1936 until 1959, 23 years. 7.62nato versions were still in front line service until 1965.
Click to expand...

He has some very interesting, educational, and entertaining presentations.

The M1 Garand Ping




​

GR
 
Note that Mr. Garand's early rifles with primer actuation had 20 round box magazines. There was considerable work on box magazine M1 derivatives in late WW II. And of course the M1 Carbine, M1 Thompson, and M3 SMG never had anything but. The enbloc clip was state of the art for only a few years.
 
The Garand ping was at least occasionally a factor, contrary to what the blokes suggest.

A friend who carried an BAR in Korea told me that the chinese seemed to hate BARs. Once they identified where one was located, they would invariably try to use mortars to take it out. As a result, he minimized firing his in full-auto mode, and whenever he did, it was always in high-opportunity situations and was followed by a quick shoot-and-scoot.

He and his ammo carriers developed a ruse that took advantage of what the chinese knew about the ping...he told me that he would sometimes fire a couple of single shots (which were, of course, indistinguishable from shots from a Garand), and his carrier would then bang an empty enbloc clip on his helmet. He said that the chinese would sometimes take this opportunity to shift positions (NOT to rush them) and he could engage them in single shot or full auto while they moved.

I wasn't in Korea, but I believed my friend more than I trust the "blokes" or any other internet entertainers who've never been on a two-way range with a Garand in their hands.
 
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