Now I've seen everything... Krag pistol

I believe that gun is felony in plain sight. I thought it was illegal to turn a rifle into a pistol. Not sure, I don't know NFA rules. Someone will weigh in.

It might not be in the US of A, and be perfectly legal.

I greatly prefer the original, unabbreviated version:

I have always wanted one of these. No good reason except they did exist for a variety of reasons. Obrez pistol made from Mosin Nagant!
BTW I bet that Krag pistol has the most smooth bolt action pistol ever. Like butter.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-obrez-and-its-cousins/

I agree with Bannockburn -- I'll keep my Krags as they were, although the only one I have was "sporterized" about a hundred years ago.

tark said:

I believe that gun is felony in plain sight. I thought it was illegal to turn a rifle into a pistol. Not sure, I don't know NFA rules. Someone will weigh in.

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$200 and a Form 1 tax stamp and it can be perfectly legal.

$200 and a Form 1 tax stamp and it can be perfectly legal.

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And in this case........should still be illegal.

tark

I thought it was illegal to turn a rifle into a pistol. Not sure, I don't know NFA rules. Someone will weigh in.

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You would be partially correct.

You have to submit an application to the BATFE to convert a rifle to a pistol, receive approval, pay $200 for the tax stamp, and then, and only then, can you legally go to work on the conversion.

OK, that's actually much better done than I was expecting. I still wouldn't cut up a Krag, but I'd shoot it. Probably bust out the welding goggles for the muzzle flash though...

Did Remington make the XP100 in 30-40?

In the US, a probable federal felony. And a stupid one. And a tasteless one. And an impractical one.

How cheap were Krags and .30-40 in the 60's and 70's? Would something like this have been a (likely illegal) XP100 competitor even then?

If located in the US, it's either an SBR, or an unregistered SBR; it can't be a pistol (unless the receiver was cut, and then rewelded as a new pistol).

Also, I don't know the caliber, but that 0° vertical grip has got to hurt on firing.

P5 Guy said:

Did Remington make the XP100 in 30-40?

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I think the original XPs were in 221 fireball only. I seem to remember Remington coming out with an updated version, which I believe you could get in several calibers. My old boss, Les Baer, used to build custom XPs in all kinds of different calibers.

Okay, I am about as traditional as you can get, but that is so steam punk I love it! No different in intent than one of the Remington bolt pistols. Not saying I would want one, but...what the heck!

I collect old military firearms and would love to find an un-butchered Krag-Jorgensen that I could afford. Pretty much all of them I have come across have already been butchered (sporterized) and ruined in my eyes. If the pistol was made from a previously butchered rifle I like it! Unusual, unique and kind of nice looking.

C’mon fellas - folks build this kinda of thing every day, and have for many years. If you aren’t familiar with the ACTUAL LAWS surrounding NFA items, you’re not doing anyone any favors by spouting mistruths as if they were gospel, just because it sounds good on the Internet.

kozak6 said:

In the US, a probable federal felony.

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This keeps getting kicked around in this thread, while there is absolutely no reason to suspect such to be true. “Probable” felony, is nothing more than speculation. The work done in that “Weapon made from a rifle” (‘cuz it isn’t a pistol on paper) looks to have been done by a highly skilled smith and stockmaker, and there’s no reason to expect such a skilled and knowledgeable maker would be totally ignorant of the laws by which he lives.

It might not be your particular taste, but there’s no reason to accuse the maker of anything nefarious.

edwardware said:

If located in the US, it's either an SBR, or an unregistered SBR; it can't be a pistol (unless the receiver was cut, and then rewelded as a new pistol).

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More bad assumptions and assertions here. It’s not an SBR because it is no longer a rifle. The NFA classification for this type of weapon is “Weapon made from a rifle.” The “remanufacture” Avenue you suggest, where a receiver were cut (destroyed) then rewelded and reserialized by a Type 7 is convoluted.

Page 4 of ATF Form 1, application to make a firearm offers definitions for these firearm types.

$200 for a Form 1, a 7 month wait, a custom stockmaker and a decent gunsmith, almost any of us can have that WMfaR LEGALLY in the US.

Also - recoil in specialty pistols really isn’t bad, AND the steep grip angle is intentional to help manage recoil and control the pistol during such. It keeps the pistol in your hand, rather than pushing a sloped grip through your hand. Most folks aren’t familiar with bolt action Specialty Pistols and assume the recoil is terrible, but in reality, you can pack a LOT of cartridge into a small package and never feel as much hand pain as even a 357mag J frame.

Varminterror said:

Page 4 of ATF Form 1, application to make a firearm offers definitions for these firearm types.

$200 for a Form 1, a 7 month wait, a custom stockmaker and a decent gunsmith, almost any of us can have that WMfaR LEGALLY in the US.

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Fascinating. I have never read of a WMfaR classification.

Once made, is it still an NFA $200 transfer item, or is it freed?

edwardware said:

Fascinating. I have never read of a WMfaR classification.

Once made, is it still an NFA $200 transfer item, or is it freed?

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Always an NFA item unless it were converted back to a full length rifle. As silly as it might be. A Remington 700 action sold from Brownells or anywhere else as a bare action could become a pistol, then a rifle, then back to a pistol, all the while being a Title I firearm and not subject to the NFA. Instead, if another Rem 700 action, made on the same line to the same specification, but left the factory as a rifle, it can never be a pistol, but rather could ONLY look like a pistol if applied as a Weapon Made from a Rifle (in some cases, an SBR, if OAL is >26” even in a handgun form), and forever onward, while it is a handgun form, it’s an NFA item. If an an action starts as a rifle, the first time it is stocked and chambered, it can never be a pistol (other than “kits” like the Encore which are so designated in their transfers). But an action which starts as a pistol can be a pistol or a rifle, and back and forth.

That Krag, or the hypothetical Rem 700 I described above could be converted back to a Title I legal rifle status and notice sent to the ATF such it’s no longer an NFA item, then sold as any rifle would be, but as long as it stayed as a specialty pistol form, it would always have to be handled as an NFA item.

While some of us may recoil in horror at cut up historical guns, they were likely done in a period when there were zillions of these and the market was depressed.

Literally. The inter-war period was marked by The Great Depression. People still needed sporting arms, so places like Bannermans took their giant supplies of surplus guns like Krags, and restocked, tossed the military features, put on contemporary sporting sights, and sold them for a relative song. Not gonna try to do the math for cost of living etc. but IIRC these were available for 1/2-1/4 the price of a new commercial gun.

You may also ask, why new stocks? Well, there's not too much info even to the super collectors but since even the original military style ones were often sold with random collections of parts to make a whole gun, it seems the surplus guns were in rather poor shape and I would guess many of the sporterized ones got nominated for that because they had too few parts, especially things like stocks.

Anyway, this pistol may not just have been cobbled together because it was a cheap host, but because it had a destroyed butt, or damage to the front half of the barrel, etc and if not this, it gets used for parts then trashed.


Moving off topic: I came here because I thought someone had access to one of these
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ole-krags-experimental-pistol-made-by-norinco/


Gas delayed blowback (a la P7), Krag designed pistol, submitted to the Norwegian trials in 1912 or so.

Varminterror said:

C’mon fellas - folks build this kinda of thing every day, and have for many years. If you aren’t familiar with the ACTUAL LAWS surrounding NFA items, you’re not doing anyone any favors by spouting mistruths as if they were gospel, just because it sounds good on the Internet.

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Absolutely true!!!

More bad assumptions and assertions here. It’s not an SBR because it is no longer a rifle.

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You should read your own advice above.
All SBR's are no longer "rifles" because they no longer meet the definition of "rifle" under Federal law.

The NFA classification for this type of weapon is “Weapon made from a rifle.”

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Which is a "Short barreled rifle" as defined in Federal law/ATF regulations:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...913ffa61&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Whether it was originally made as a short barreled rifle or made from a Title I rifle is immaterial.....it's currently an SBR.

The “remanufacture” Avenue you suggest, where a receiver were cut (destroyed) then rewelded and reserialized by a Type 7 is convoluted.

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Convoluted or not, ATF has recognized such firearms in the past as not under the purview of the NFA. That interpretation is always subject to change.

Page 4 of ATF Form 1, application to make a firearm offers definitions for these firearm types.

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No, the instructions on the Form 1 do not offer definitions for NFA firearm types...….just "firearm" as defined by the National Firearms Act.
Each of those NFA firearms as described in the Form 1 instructions has its own definition in Federal law/ATF regulations. See the link above.

The same instructions are on the Form 3 and Form 4...…….and in eight years of being an SOT I've yet to see the description on a Form 3/4 as "Weapon made from a rifle" .
It has always been "SBR" or Short Barreled Rifle" and in the case of shotguns, "SBS" or Short Barreled Shotgun".

Varminterror said:

….Instead, if another Rem 700 action, made on the same line to the same specification, but left the factory as a rifle, it can never be a pistol,

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Seriously, you need to stop with the advice because once again you are wrong.
A "Rem 700 action", meaning no shoulder stock, is NOT a "rifle". ATF regulations are clear that a firearm frame or receiver is just a "firearm" until completed as a handgun or long gun. Please read the instructions to Question 16 on the Form 4473.

A Remington 700 rifle (meaning it meets the definition of "rifle" in Federal law/ATF regulation) can never be a "pistol".

but rather could ONLY look like a pistol if applied as a Weapon Made from a Rifle (in some cases, an SBR, if OAL is >26” even in a handgun form), and forever onward, while it is a handgun form, it’s an NFA item.

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This sentence makes my head hurt.
Please stop.

If an an action starts as a rifle, the first time it is stocked and chambered, it can never be a pistol (other than “kits” like the Encore which are so designated in their transfers). But an action which starts as a pistol can be a pistol or a rifle, and back and forth.

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AGAIN…..WRONG.
You keep using the term "action" without knowing that an "action" (receiver, frame, AR lower) is a firearm in itself and is not a handgun or long gun until completed as such. There is no such thing as an "action that starts as a rifle" …..that would be a rifle.

In your 8 years as an SOT, how many specialty bolt action pistols have you made which would meet the classification of a weapon made from a rifle, not an SBR? It remains to be a human institution, but that has been my advice by the agents helping me Form 1 a couple Rem 700’s.

The instructions, as I cited above, from Page 4 of the ATF Form 1. Item 4 in the Definitions section, Firearms sub-section, circled below.

ATF Form 1

Reading must be very difficult for you.

If an action - the action itself, leaves Remington assembled as a rifle, which is what I said above, then it has to become an NFA item to be converted to a specialty pistol. If it’s over 26” total, I have been told to list them as an SBR, despite lacking a buttstock. Under 26”, I was instructed to list as a WMfaR.

If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, it can be a specialty pistol or a rifle. Which is what I said above.

If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, but is first chambered and stocked as a rifle by the owner, the standing advice I have been given, which is berated at length about AR-15’s and was such with TC Encores many years ago, the action could no longer be reconfigured into a pistol.

I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, that you were engrossed so deeply in your chest thumping tirade that you couldn’t understand when I said “the action left the factory as a rifle,” I meant “left the factory assembled into a complete rifle.” Because everything you “corrected” about my statement is exactly the same as I stated.

So either you can’t read, or you’re one of those SOT’s who doesn’t understand as much about NFA items outside of the products they sell as they think they do.

Here’s your guidance describing that an action, originally assembled as a pistol can be reconfigured into a rifle without becoming an NFA firearm, but the reverse NOT being true.

ATF Ruling including Definitions for rifles, pistols, and conversions in between