Question about shipping firearms

Snowdog · Sep 2, 2019

So here's the backstory:

A long-time family friend informed us yesterday that he had inherited a number of firearms a couple years ago that he, not being a "gun guy", stashed away in various closets in his house. When he discovered that I am indeed a "gun guy", he sought my assistance in selling them as he claims he does not want them in his house since guns are "not his thing".
He also requested I take them home with me as he doesn't like the idea of them not being secured in case of theft (besides not wanting a gun in his home). I'm convinced the idea of firearms falling into the hands of criminals is his main concern, not the monetary loss. He likely isn't hurting for money anyway; he collects Corvettes... no joke.
I do plan on running each serial number through HotGunz as a precaution.

In a couple days, I will take a look at these firearms. I don't know the exact number and neither does he, but the volume sounds substantial. The person he inherited them from was a collector.
He described one of the firearms as the "Al Capone" type that's heavy as hell and has a drum.
I'm praying none of them are NFA or class 3 (as I know these I can't touch).

As compensation, he offered to give me a commission on the legal sale of these firearms. I suggested he instead offer me first crack on purchasing any firearm I'm interest in adding to my collection to which he readily agreed.
He readily offered selling them to me at a deeply discounted price... once I determine that what that price may be. I'll supply him with the current market value nonetheless.
The rest I plan on using Gunbroker to sell as I have used this site extensively in the past to buy and sell (sale of C&R firearms).

From the online research I've conducted so far, I see that a non-licensee can ship directly to an out of state FFL holder a rifle or shotgun.

I also see that a handgun must be sent from FFL to FFL (other than FFL03).

This much I understand.

I'm presuming that shipping to a location within the state (NC), these same rules apply.

I have stumbled across several posts on various forums outside THR where some claim a non-licensed person can ship a handgun via UPS 2nd Day Air to a FFL in the same state.
This doesn't sound right to me.

As for C&R, I have that covered since I hold a FFL03 and have shipped and received several over the years.

Here are the specific questions I have:

1) Can a non-licensed person ship (by USPS or UPS) a modern long gun to a FFL01 who is out of state?
a) if not, how about within the same state (NC)?

2) Are there any circumstances where it is acceptable for a non-licensed person to ship, via UPS, a handgun to a FFL01 either in-state or out-of-state?

3) Am I correct to presume a pistol purchase permit is require for FTF handgun sales? How about if the purchaser is able to provide an active CCW permit?

4) On the remote off-chance one or more of these firearms are indeed NFA or Class 3, must they be forfeited straight out or can he still profit in the (legal!) sale of such weapons?

Thanks in advance!

George P · Sep 2, 2019

I also see that a handgun must be sent from FFL to FFL (other than FFL03).

This much I understand.

You understand incorrectly from a Federal perspective. If the receiving FFL will accept a shipment from a non-FFL (perfectly legal) then ship away

1 - yes and a) - yes
2 - not applicable, perfectly fine and legal
3 - only if your state requires it (and IIRC, NC does)
4 - they can be transferred only if they were registered prior to 1986

Jessesky · Sep 2, 2019

Also, what’s for sale? Plenty of guys on this forum who may be interested!

AlexanderA · Sep 2, 2019

Snowdog said:
He described one of the firearms as the "Al Capone" type that's heavy as hell and has a drum.
I'm praying none of them are NFA or class 3 (as I know these I can't touch).

Snowdog said:
4) On the remote off-chance one or more of these firearms are indeed NFA or Class 3, must they be forfeited straight out or can he still profit in the (legal!) sale of such weapons?

Sounds like some variety of Thompson. It might be a recently-made semiautomatic (barrel greater than 16"), in which case it would be treated like any other rifle.

If it's fully automatic, it might be a registered transferable. A lawyer who handles NFA matters can inquire confidentially with ATF and find out if it's in the Registry. If it is, you have to establish a chain of possession from the original owner (presumably the person from whom your friend inherited), through the will or intestate succession to your friend. Then it might be possible for your friend to file a Form 5 and register it in his name.

Otherwise, strip it for parts (which can be quite valuable in themselves) and turn in the bare receiver to the ATF.

Telekinesis · Sep 3, 2019

Snowdog said:
I also see that a handgun must be sent from FFL to FFL (other than FFL03).

This much I understand.

That is incorrect. It is often easier and less expensive for a non-FFLs to ship handguns through FFLs, but it is not legally required.

Snowdog said:
As for C&R, I have that covered since I hold a FFL03 and have shipped and received several over the years.

You spend a lot of time in your post calling yourself a “non-licensed person” when in fact you are considered licensed for a specific segment of firearms. Anything that your friend gives you which fits the C&R classification (50+ years old or on the list) MUST go into your bound book and then be logged out when you sell the gun. The C&R rules don’t get waived for helping friends.

There’s a lot of info we don’t have and it may not be an issue, but depending on the size of the collection and the types of guns, you may not want to take possession. Imagine if you get audited by the ATF and have 50 C&R guns logged in and then all are logged out shortly thereafter. You don’t want to give them any room to think you’re dealing without the proper license, even if you are helping out a friend. Just some food for thought.

Snowdog said:
4) On the remote off-chance one or more of these firearms are indeed NFA or Class 3, must they be forfeited straight out or can he still profit in the (legal!) sale of such weapons?

If you suspect that anything is NFA, do your absolute best to try to find any paperwork that may show the legality of the weapons (as weapons from an inheritance they should be on form 5s, but if your friend doesn’t know what that is they will most likely be on a form 1 or 4 to the deceased owner). You’ll want to do some research too on the basics of identifying machine guns too - things like open va closed bolt SMGs, open up ARs and AKs to look for auto sears, third pin holes, DIAS, lightning links, etc.

I’ve helped a widow deal with selling off a very large collection that included some registered machine guns and it is a pain, but they can be worth a lot of money. That also can cause a lot of internal fighting too. That window was very nonchalant about letting my friend and I help her sell the guns when she thought the collection was worth about $3,000. Once she found out the collection was worth North of $45,000 she started behaving quite differently.

If the machine guns are not registered, the gun is illegal and there is no way to bring it into compliance. The best you can do is strip all the parts (for future sale) and turn in or destroy the receiver.

dogtown tom · Sep 3, 2019

Snowdog said:
I do plan on running each serial number through HotGunz as a precaution.

Waste of time.

From the online research I've conducted so far............I also see that a handgun must be sent from FFL to FFL (other than FFL03).

You need better research.

I'm presuming that shipping to a location within the state (NC), these same rules apply.

Federal law does not prohibit shipping firearms to another resident of your state as long as you have no reason to believe them prohibited from possessing a firearm.

I have stumbled across several posts on various forums outside THR where some claim a non-licensed person can ship a handgun via UPS 2nd Day Air to a FFL in the same state.
This doesn't sound right to me.

You need to read the "How to ship firearms" sticky here at THR: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-to-ship-firearms.651375/

As for C&R, I have that covered since I hold a FFL03 and have shipped and received several over the years.

Are you SURE?
An 03FFL Collector of Curios & Relics is for YOUR collecting purposes, not for dealing in firearms. What you describe above is what ATF considers an engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. While Federal law and ATF regs clearly allow someone to sell off THEIR OWN collection, that's not what you are doing.

Here are the specific questions I have:
1) Can a non-licensed person ship (by USPS or UPS) a modern long gun to a FFL01 who is out of state?
a) if not, how about within the same state (NC)?

Yes, happens every day. Read the sticky.

2) Are there any circumstances where it is acceptable for a non-licensed person to ship, via UPS, a handgun to a FFL01 either in-state or out-of-state?

Yes, happens every day. Read the sticky.

3) Am I correct to presume a pistol purchase permit is require for FTF handgun sales? How about if the purchaser is able to provide an active CCW permit?

That's a state law. If you ship to a licensed dealer, he will assume responsibility for conducting the background check, abiding by ATF regulations and state laws.

4) On the remote off-chance one or more of these firearms are indeed NFA or Class 3, must they be forfeited straight out or can he still profit in the (legal!) sale of such weapons?

If there is no Form 4 showing the decedent or Form 5 showing legal transfer to the current possessor, then there may be a problem. But first, you need to determine if that firearm is indeed an NFA firearm (no such animal as a "Class 3", that's a tax class paid by some SOT's and does not define a firearm).

If that "Al Capone" gun is semiautomatic, its a Title I firearm. If its indeed a machine gun it could be worth upwards of $25,000...….if registered. If not registered it's nontransfereable. If your friend cannot locate the Form 4 or Form 5, then you, he or an attorney would contact ATF and have them check the registry. If a Form 5 (tax free transfer from an estate or bequest) was never completed, it's pretty likely ATF would want that done pronto. Typically ATF allows a few months after the death of the legal possessor to file for a Form 5.

No Form 4 or 5 and not in the registry? Strip it of all its parts and call ATF to come pick up the receiver. (the parts will have value to those that own Al Capone guns

)

Again, I caution you on what you are attempting to do. Before reading the sticky on "how to ship firearms", read this from ATF: https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

AlexanderA · Sep 3, 2019

dogtown tom said:
No Form 4 or 5 and not in the registry? Strip it of all its parts and call ATF to come pick up the receiver. (the parts will have value to those that own Al Capone guns )

On a Thompson, the trickiest part to remove would be the barrel. The barrel is also the most valuable, because the further importation of barrels, in parts kits, has been prohibited. It's worth investing in the proper tools to do this right. If, in spite of using the proper wrench, the barrel is still torqued on too tight, you can cut a relief slit at the front of the receiver (since the receiver will be discarded anyway). Be sure not to cut into the barrel threads.

Snowdog · Sep 3, 2019

Thanks for all the replies. There's a plethora of information here to chew over.

I'll see what he has in the morning. As long as there are no prohibited items, I might simply offer him a lump sum to purchase the lot. From how it sounds, this might benefit us both.

George Dickel · Sep 3, 2019

You are going to be very busy boxing and shipping these guns. It will require a lot of your time to properly pack them. If these are collectable guns it would be much easier to contact an auction company that holds auctions for firearms. They will advertise the sale as it will benefit their pocketbook to get as many buyers together as they can. Auctions usually will result in higher prices for the guns. The auctions I've gone to with the intent on buying drove the prices higher than I was willing to pay.

Snowdog · Sep 4, 2019

Jessesky said:
Also, what’s for sale? Plenty of guys on this forum who may be interested!

It seems most of the firearms had already been given away to family. There were only 5 firearms left, 3 of which I purchased... two Nagant revolvers and a Luger. I also purchased a wealth of ammunition.

There are two firearms I plan to assist him in auctioning, a commemorative Thompson and a K98 from Mitchell's Mausers. The photos can be found in my post attempting to attain a fair reserve price in the Rifle forum.

AlexanderA · Sep 5, 2019

Snowdog said:
There are two firearms I plan to assist him in auctioning, a commemorative Thompson and a K98 from Mitchell's Mausers. The photos can be found in my post attempting to attain a fair reserve price in the Rifle forum.

Both of these are treated as ordinary rifles. I think you'll be disappointed in the current values, compared to what the original owner paid. There is little collector interest in commemoratives or Mitchell rebuilds.

Snowdog · Sep 5, 2019

AlexanderA said:
There is little collector interest in commemoratives or Mitchell rebuilds.

I guess on the bright side, he didn't pay a penny for either of these rifles, so anything would be profitable. I just hope he stays realistic as to what he can get for them. If it wasn't for all the gold and silver on all over the receiver, compensator and elsewhere, I would have probably purchased it for myself. I just don't like gaudy anything, firearms included.

Question about shipping firearms

Snowdog

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AlexanderA

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Telekinesis

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dogtown tom

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