Debate on accessories/tactics for a new gun owner

Status
Not open for further replies.
There are so many misconceptions about weapon mounted lights. First of all, you're going to be a much better shooter by keeping a proper two handed grip on your gun instead of trying to juggle pistol and light separately. Yes it can be done, but you're sacrificing grip and muscle memory. I don't want to give up that edge in a fight.

Secondly, you do not have to point your weapon light at someone to illuminate them enough to see. Simply point it at the ground in front of you in a natural low port position and there will be more than enough backsplash to clearly see whatever is in the room. If it turns out to be a threat you can quickly cover them. If not, you haven't endangered them in any way because you never pointed your pistol at them. Try this in a dark room. You'll see what I mean.

Thirdly, I think the argument that a weapon light gives your adversary something to aim at makes sense until you actually try it with force on force training. Most of the time the backsplash is just going to illuminate both parties.

Even if you roll with a weapon light it shouldn't preclude you from having a separate handheld light as well. Most of the time that's what you'll be using but if the pistol comes out of it's holster the handheld gets put away to free up one hand for opening doors, using a cell phone to call 911, clearing a malfunction etc.
 
stormTosh said:
I definitely thought the idea of using the weapon mounted light ( assuming someone is breaking into your house so you turn your light on ) and you muzzle your teenager or family member rummaging around the house. I can already hear someone saying only use the light when you “know” there’s a threat but if you think someone’s in your house that’s going into the situation with the mindset there is danger.
Click to expand...


Yes, but that perception of danger can cause mistakes too. You see the fire in tour hose at 4 AM and light it up. Just do not pull the trigger until you have a positive ID do who you are aiming your light and gun at.
 
1942bull said:
Yes, but that perception of danger can cause mistakes too. You see the fire in tour hose at 4 AM and light it up. Just do not pull the trigger until you have a positive ID do who you are aiming your light and gun at.
Click to expand...
Agreed!
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
Yet I've never heard of a poor shooter magically getting better while being shot it.
Click to expand...
I've never heard where skill on the square range translated into combat proficiency. If you exclusively train for IPSC, USPSA, IDPA or any other competition, you are training to win that competition, you're not training to fight. The marksmanship skills you learn training for competition are somewhat transferable, I say somewhat because few of us fight with the same gear we compete with. You are also going to develop unconscious habits such as automatically clearing your weapon and holstering that may not serve you well in a fight. The late Pat Rogers once told me that he drove ROs nuts at competitions because he always reloaded with a fresh magazine and then cleared his weapon and holstered so he wouldn't get in the habit of automatically holstering an empty pistol. Training for competition is good but we have to know what it is and just as importantly, what it isn't. There are a lot of things one does administratively on the range at a match that are not good habits in a fight and if you only train for the match you will:

Phaedrus/69 said:
sink to the level of their training.
Click to expand...

So if one states they won't take any advice from someone who has been there/done that until that person can out shoot them in a match, then one is missing out on some information that may be critical in a fight. I hear a lot of similar comments from competition shooters and then see them get a huge awakening when they try properly planned and conducted force on force training.

MCFLYFYTER said:
Can anyone name one downside to having a light mounted on a pistol used in a home defense roll?
Click to expand...

If you train to use it, there is no downside. If you aren't willing to invest the time and effort into learning how to use it, then it's just so much extra weight.

shafter said:
Even if you roll with a weapon light it shouldn't preclude you from having a separate handheld light as well. Most of the time that's what you'll be using but if the pistol comes out of it's holster the handheld gets put away to free up one hand for opening doors, using a cell phone to call 911, etc.
Click to expand...

I carried a Surefire 6z on my duty belt, with the lanyard. I had a Surefire X200 on my duty weapon. The 6z was in my weak hand with the lanyard around my wrist and the duty weapon in my strong hand. When I needed to use my weak hand to open a door, key the mic on my portable etc. or take a two handed firing grip I simply let the 6z dangle from my wrist.
 
It is pretty apparent that many people have never even used a light in a dark room. You point a decent light anywhere inside of a room, and it will make it day. Some people just cant stand to believe that their thinking is flawed and will make silly arguments until they die. Yes, I have been guilty of doing this too, but now I am happy to change my opinion if logic and data indicate I am wrong.

People that are insecure about their intelligence tend to seek out echo chambers of their thoughts to make them feel better.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
It is pretty apparent that many people have never even used a light in a dark room.
Click to expand...
I have just a little bit of experience using a light in a dark room and I'm not talking about just in training.

MCFLYFYTER said:
You point a decent light anywhere inside of a room, and it will make it day.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you should read my thread from 4 years ago and you might be enlightened on how one uses light as a force multiplier.
 
Jeff White said:
I've never heard where skill on the square range translated into combat proficiency. If you exclusively train for IPSC, USPSA, IDPA or any other competition, you are training to win that competition, you're not training to fight. The marksmanship skills you learn training for competition are somewhat transferable, I say somewhat because few of us fight with the same gear we compete with. You are also going to develop unconscious habits such as automatically clearing your weapon and holstering that may not serve you well in a fight. The late Pat Rogers once told me that he drove ROs nuts at competitions because he always reloaded with a fresh magazine and then cleared his weapon and holstered so he wouldn't get in the habit of automatically holstering an empty pistol. Training for competition is good but we have to know what it is and just as importantly, what it isn't. There are a lot of things one does administratively on the range at a match that are not good habits in a fight and if you only train for the match you will:
Click to expand...

Cool story. It had absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted though. Perhaps it was meant as rebuttal to an argument made by someone other than me? I surmise that because it was not me that said I wouldn't train with someone who couldn't best me in a contest. It also doesn't explain how being shot at would instantly increase your shooting skills.

Apropos of nothing it's interesting that IPSC started out with the intention of being a realistic training/competition sport. Of course that didn't last long, and just like UFC, etc it turned into a game. Presumably if you followed Pat Roger's lead and incorporated realistic tactics while competing it could still be useful training. Jerry Miculek once acknowledged that all of his competition hadn't necessarily prepared him for a gunfight, but he noted wryly that he doubted many folks would want to get into a gun fight with him. I'll just leave it at that.;)
 
Jeff White said:
If you train to use it, there is no downside. If you aren't willing to invest the time and effort into learning how to use it, then it's just so much extra weight.
Click to expand...
I have found that weight at the muzzle is advantageous for me, and most shooters would agree. If you feel you need more muzzle rise and recoil that is less controllable, that is fine for you.
Jeff White said:
I have just a little bit of experience using a light in a dark room and I'm not talking about just in training.


Perhaps you should read my thread from 4 years ago and you might be enlightened on how one uses light as a force multiplier.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you have actually used a light, as it appears many have not.

I don't personally try to use a wml as a force multiplier, just an illumination tool.

I get the feeling you are saying wml's are good if you are highly trained, but bad if you are just a civilian?
 
Jeff White said:
Yes because everyone knows, combat and real life deadly force encounters are nothing compared to skill at a game......Competition is not at all the equivalent of combat and training to compete isn't the same as training to fight.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it did. Bet every mil and cop guy that I know, has said emphatically, that competition has greatly increased his skill level in combat as well.

And we've all seen the ninjas and macho guys get wasted by a 12 year old girl. It's a good thing. Reinforces the need to train and improve.

Tactics are totally different. But hitting the target, is exactly the same. Reloading is the same. Movement, pretty darn similar. You're not going to find a better variety of challenging targets to shoot on any pistol range, than you will on a USPSA stage. Slow rangers and olde farts don't want to admit it, but there's a lot worth studying in the science of competition.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
I get the feeling you are saying wml's are good if you are highly trained, but bad if you are just a civilian
Click to expand...
No dog in this fight, but I took Mr. White's comment to mean you should train to be proficient with whatever gear you run with.
Shouldn't much matter whether you're using RMR, laser, WML...shotgun, frog gig...you pick. If you don't practice and become capable of deploying said weapon sufficiently to defend yourself, it's kinda moot.
 
Zerodefect said:
Increased swing weight may slow draws and transitions. Not enough to matter in a defensive situation most likely.

Light ND's.
Click to expand...
Is this why all of the professional shooters add tungsten guide rods and lights to their open guns, because it slows them down?
 
Howland937 said:
No dog in this fight, but I took Mr. White's comment to mean you should train to be proficient with whatever gear you run with.
Shouldn't much matter whether you're using RMR, laser, WML...shotgun, frog gig...you pick. If you don't practice and become capable of deploying said weapon sufficiently to defend yourself, it's kinda moot.
Click to expand...
A light is not a weapon. Even if you dont know how to turn it on, it will still make a handgun easier to shoot well. The only con I can think of is if you inadvertently activate your light in your dark room while developing irreplaceable photographs of aliens. Yeah, essentially zero downside.
 
Zerodefect said:
Bet every mil and cop guy that I know, has said emphatically, that competition has greatly increased his skill level in combat as well.
Click to expand...


There is a lot more to fighting then shooting skills. While the marksmanship skills one learns in competition are transferable, the "tactics" one learns aren't My problem with comments about "combat competition" being equivalent to combat training is that it simply isn't. When you train to compete, you aren't training to fight and there is a huge difference. Marksmanship is just a small component of fighting. Anything that improves marksmanship is good. But I repeat, no shooting game is combat training.

Zerodefect said:
And we've all seen the ninjas and macho guys get wasted by a 12 year old girl. It's a good thing. Reinforces the need to train and improve.
Click to expand...

I've seen plenty of good competition shooters and even professionals, LE and military get humbled in their first few force on force training sessions. And force on force is the only way to simulate a real fight. Unfortunately good FOF training is hard to find.

You may be able to teach the military or LE professional some things about marksmanship and fast accurate shooting and if he's smart, he'll learn, but that same professional will most likely be able to teach you some tings about actual deadly force encounters. Don't dismiss someone's knowledge that may have been learned in a lifetime of doing it for real because he can't play a game as well as you.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
A light is not a weapon. Even if you dont know how to turn it on, it will still make a handgun easier to shoot well. The only con I can think of is if you inadvertently activate your light in your dark room while developing irreplaceable photographs of aliens. Yeah, essentially zero downside.
Click to expand...
The RMR and laser I mentioned are not weapons either. My comment was toward "gear"...However a person decides to equip themselves or their weapon, if they're not able to use it effectively it won't matter. I tell my kid when he's playing in the yard, if the neighbors dog comes in the yard barking and coming toward him, hit it with a rock. Fine concept, but if I hadn't taught him how to throw, and he in turn became somewhat accurate at 10', the rock would be useless. But he had to throw a lot of rocks to become M.O.M. accurate.
 
Last edited:
Howland937 said:
The RMR and laser I mentioned are not weapons either. My comment was toward "gear"...However a person decides to equip themselves or their weapon, if they're not able to use it effectively it won't matter. I tell my kid when he's playing in the yard, if the neighbors dog comes in the yard barking and coming toward him, hit it with a rock. Fine concept, but if I hadn't taught him how to throw, and he in turn became somewhat accurate at 10', the rock would be useless. But he had to throw a lot of rocks to become M.O.M. accurate.
Click to expand...
I think it is flawed thinking to say that every accessory is a liability if not highly trained. Would adding a stock and longer barrel be a liability? This entire thread has revolved around weapon mounted lights, and adding lasers and rds's would just muddy the water with no benefit.

Typically when you have to introduce a different subject or idea to justify your current argument, that is a sign that your argument has no merit on it's own.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
when you have to introduce a different subject or idea to justify your current argument, that is a sign that your argument has no merit on it's own.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's what I did. Because even though they're all accessories, they're so incredibly different that there's no basis for comparison. And since learning to efficiently use whatever gadgets you decide to trust your life with is overrated, I humbly apologize for the attempt at confusing a new shooter.
MCFLYFYTER said:
Would adding a stock and longer barrel be a liability?
Click to expand...
I'd say no, definitely not. It's the same gun, right? I doubt it's even worth shooting to find out if it handles differently. Should be just fine using the same ammo and everything.
 
Jeff White said:
I carried a Surefire 6z on my duty belt, with the lanyard. I had a Surefire X200 on my duty weapon. The 6z was in my weak hand with the lanyard around my wrist and the duty weapon in my strong hand. When I needed to use my weak hand to open a door, key the mic on my portable etc. or take a two handed firing grip I simply let the 6z dangle from my wrist.
Click to expand...

That's one way to skin the cat.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
I think it is flawed thinking to say that every accessory is a liability if not highly trained
Click to expand...
For the record, I didn't actually say highly trained. I'm not highly trained in anything. I practice with the stuff I carry or use for HD, and I expect it to work when I need it to. If I don't have 100% confidence in the gear, gun, or myself with a particular set-up, I'm not trusting my life to it. Everyone's needs or experiences will be different. I only suggest that whatever set-up an individual decides to go with, they should use it enough to be certain it's right for them and that it will serve their prospective needs.
 
I remember when I went through night fire training in the Navy decades ago, we had the big D-Cell Maglites. We would be instructed to have our 1911 at the ready, then hold the flashlight in our weak hand and extend our arm all the way to the side, flick on the light and shine it at the target, fire three rounds, then flick off the light. Repeat. Sort of comical.

Later training was in the use of the small Surefire lights and to use a grip in which you used a one-handed grip, but your weak hand with the light was braced on your gun hand next to the weapon. I believe that's the method used by law enforcement today, if they don't have weapon lights, which most do around here these days.
 
Howland937 said:
For the record, I didn't actually say highly trained. I'm not highly trained in anything. I practice with the stuff I carry or use for HD, and I expect it to work when I need it to. If I don't have 100% confidence in the gear, gun, or myself with a particular set-up, I'm not trusting my life to it. Everyone's needs or experiences will be different. I only suggest that whatever set-up an individual decides to go with, they should use it enough to be certain it's right for them and that it will serve their prospective needs.
Click to expand...
I absolutely do not have 100% confidence in my guns and gear. I gave up on anything working as planned a long time ago. If a red dot that you rely on fails, you are left without a sighting system. If the laser you train with fails, you will point shoot at best because you haven't trained to look at the front sight. If your weapon light fails, you are left with a gun that shoots and functions exactly like you have trained with. Granted, you'd have to transition to a handheld light, but that is quicker and easier than swapping red dots or lasers.
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
I absolutely do not have 100% confidence in my guns and gear. I gave up on anything working as planned a long time ago. If a red dot that you rely on fails, you are left without a sighting system. If the laser you train with fails, you will point shoot at best because you haven't trained to look at the front sight. If your weapon light fails, you are left with a gun that shoots and functions exactly like you have trained with. Granted, you'd have to transition to a handheld light, but that is quicker and easier than swapping red dots or lasers.
Click to expand...

Yes!!!
 
MCFLYFYTER said:
If a red dot that you rely on fails, you are left without a sighting system. If the laser you train with fails, you will point shoot at best because you haven't trained to look at the front sight. If your weapon light fails, you are left with a gun that shoots and functions exactly like you have trained with. Granted, you'd have to transition to a handheld light, but that is quicker and easier than swapping red dots or lasers.
Click to expand...

If your red dot fails it's still a tube, just look at the sights. Nearly everyone that uses a RDS still has irons. I've seen a few youtube videos of hobby guns set up without sights but that's the exception to the rule.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Tactical Shotgun, Aug 8th, 2009 Dayton OH
Replies
1
Views
481
Fred Fuller
F
F
  • Locked
How to Use a Flashlight in a Tactical Situation
2
Replies
29
Views
1K
OregonJohnny
O
T
  • Locked
Re-Thinking Home Defense
2 3
Replies
51
Views
3K
soggysod
S
P
  • Locked
Louis Awerbuck - Tactical Shotgun May 8-10, 2007 - Baton Rouge, LA
Replies
9
Views
744
flip180
F
G
  • Locked
Tactical Response Alumni Shoot
Replies
4
Views
393
Bix
B
Back
Top