Is it true that only the meplat of a handgun bullet causes wounding in a body?

Veral Smith, of Lead Bullet Technology, did a lot of experimentation and determined that the shoulder of a SWC doesn't do any work. I'm actually unfamiliar with his methodology so can't vouch for the truth of it, but it seems to me that he played a large role in popularizing the idea that the meplat is the real killer. Certainly I have found his WFN shapes more effective in game - and have had such terrible results with RNs that I won't ever launch one at a live target again - so I think there must be a lot of truth behind the idea.

<edit> I have seen some high speed photos of handgun bullets flying through ballistic gelatin, and it does appear that the "temporary cavity" is created all or mostly by the flat nose, with the rest of the bullet flying essentially in "vacuum". This seems to lend credence to the theory.

It’s unlikely that the shoulder contributes to the “killing power” of a cast bullet when hitting flesh....as the flesh is pushed aside upon penetration. While not a perfect description....think of a flat rock dropped into water.....it temporarily displaces water away from the rock greater than the perimeter of the rock. However, the shoulder may give some additional effects when bone is encountered.

A pointed or round nose bullet acts much like a puncture wound from, lets say a nail, minimal tissue damage.... the elasticity of the flesh expands away from the nail immediately closing the small hole. This is the reason that this type of puncture wound has minimal bleeding!

Here is a web link that helps explain wound characteristics and somewhat discounts energy in killing effectiveness! A rather long, but pretty darn interesting read! memtb

http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

A flat point propels soft tissues radially away from the bullet. The result is less tissue comes into direct contact with the bullet, reducing penetration resistance, allowing the bullet to penetrate deeper than a round nose bullet of the same caliber, weight, and velocity.

a round surface will displace, while a flat surface will compress. Once the compression reaches its limit, it will tear. Its easy to visualize with a pencil. If a pencil had enough energy to shoot through a soft object, do you think more damage will be done with the flat side, or the pointed side, again assuming total penetration. Clearly the flat side will be more destructive.

The flat face wadcutter shots similar on paper. A FMJRN will rip an ugly hole, and tear the paper up, but a LWC will cut a straight hole. Paper however is not elastic, and most of the damage to the paper is the tear, not the hole. Flatten the paper, and you will see a much smaller hole with the FMJ. Temporary cavities are not great at incapacitation. They can certainly cause damage that leads to eventual death, but its the permanent that really has the effect.

I always thought it was caused by a really speedy hunk of metal tearing thru the body and leaving a hole in the process

The 1986 FBI Miami shootout was a gunfight that occurred on April 11, 1986. This changed bullet designs & the 10mm/40 S&W was born. The 45 acp is still #1

Today, the bullet used is most important. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA570804

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Elmer Keith designed his Keith swc back in 1928, he wasn't shy about how or why he designed it. His articles aren't hard to find and are very interesting reading.

The problem with theory is just that, it is theory. While all kinds of tests have been made in recent years with high speed photography and ballistic jell, the fact remains there are millions laying in the ground today shot dead with FMJ rifle and pistol bullets. The human body doesn't like having holes poked through it and it responds by bleeding profusely, meplat or not. Being shot with anything isn't conducive to long life.

Odd Job said:

Don't forget that FMJ projectiles that remain intact in soft tissues might also yaw and end up in a base-first presentation. Where it happens in the trajectory is subject to many variables but it means that at least some of the damage might be caused by the bearing surface of the bullet as it rotates 180 degrees on its long axis.
When the bullet loses gyroscopic stability the center of gravity becomes significant and the bullet ends up base forward. It is the reason why I saw many cases where the bullet "pointed" to the entrance wound on X-ray.

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Here's an article on big game rifle hunting bullets that talks about the bullet shape differences.

https://www.recovertactical.com/pro...tabilizer-kit-for-glock-also-umarex-cybergun/

Black Hills ammo shows gel block photos of various bullet designs. You can see the yaw in the .45 ball picture and how straight the SWC round travels.

.45 Ball http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/45-ACP-230-FMJ-5-in-barrel-4-3-12.jpg

.45 SWC http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/45-ACP-200-Gr.-SWC-4-in-barrel-4-2-12-a.jpg

eb in oregon said:

The problem with theory is just that, it is theory. While all kinds of tests have been made in recent years with high speed photography and ballistic jell, the fact remains there are millions laying in the ground today shot dead with FMJ rifle and pistol bullets. The human body doesn't like having holes poked through it and it responds by bleeding profusely, meplat or not. Being shot with anything isn't conducive to long life.

Click to expand...

The fact remains that anecdotal statements "millions laying in the ground...." has nothing at all to do with anything. Millions are laying in the ground that were stabbed, slashed or bonked in the head as well. And as much as we gun guys love rifles and machine guns, many millions more died in combat from artillery and disease than rifle fire.

When discussing the effectiveness of handgun bullet design, those killed by rifles and machine guns doesn't really add to the discussion. The military chooses FMJ projectiles for reasons other than one shot effectiveness. Since relatively few of us can effectively carry a rifle IWB, we're stuck using a handgun.....and that's where caliber/cartridge/bullet design become more than theoretical, but practical considerations. Using ballistic gel as the testing medium with high speed photography isn't theoretical, but factual. The photo doesn't lie. The theory begins when you use those tests as evidence of what would happen when that bullet enters a human body. "But, but, but ballistic gel isn't at all like the human body, it has no bones!" some will say as if it proves gel tests aren't valid. Yeah, everyone knows that, but it doesn't invalidate what the test shows. Conclusions, yes, but not the evidence.

The larger the hole, the deeper the hole, and the opportunity for as many holes as possible= the greatest opportunity for blood loss. But blood loss may take precious seconds to incapacitate unless a vital organ is struck. While a one shot stop is possible, its not likely.

Even then, the bad guy often has enough time to jump around, rack the shoulder thing that goes up and fire his fully semi automatic Glock 7. I've seen it. Many, many times.

Flat meplat increases effect of hydostatic shock to tissue and fluids; blood and lymph, beyond just the hole.

PWC said:

Flat meplat increases effect of hydostatic shock to tissue and fluids; blood and lymph, beyond just the hole.

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With handgun ammo there is no real "hydrostic shock" as the bullet is not going fast enough.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/a-gel-expert-explains.857971/#post-11271877

10mm 155 XTP expands to about .65 in gel after heavy clothing.
I documented holes in deer tissue (shoulder, heart) greater than a quarter (.95) to 1 1/4''
Gel may not reflect what happens to tissue with higher velocity handgun rounds like 10mm and 357 Sig.
The generalization that handgun bullets are not fast enough to cause damage beyond what they contact, mythbusted.
Unlike the doctors who "can't tell a difference" I documented:

dogtown tom said:

The fact remains that anecdotal statements "millions laying in the ground...." has nothing at all to do with anything. Millions are laying in the ground that were stabbed, slashed or bonked in the head as well. And as much as we gun guys love rifles and machine guns, many millions more died in combat from artillery and disease than rifle fire.

When discussing the effectiveness of handgun bullet design, those killed by rifles and machine guns doesn't really add to the discussion. The military chooses FMJ projectiles for reasons other than one shot effectiveness. Since relatively few of us can effectively carry a rifle IWB, we're stuck using a handgun.....and that's where caliber/cartridge/bullet design become more than theoretical, but practical considerations. Using ballistic gel as the testing medium with high speed photography isn't theoretical, but factual. The photo doesn't lie. The theory begins when you use those tests as evidence of what would happen when that bullet enters a human body. "But, but, but ballistic gel isn't at all like the human body, it has no bones!" some will say as if it proves gel tests aren't valid. Yeah, everyone knows that, but it doesn't invalidate what the test shows. Conclusions, yes, but not the evidence.

The larger the hole, the deeper the hole, and the opportunity for as many holes as possible= the greatest opportunity for blood loss. But blood loss may take precious seconds to incapacitate unless a vital organ is struck. While a one shot stop is possible, its not likely.

Even then, the bad guy often has enough time to jump around, rack the shoulder thing that goes up and fire his fully semi automatic Glock 7. I've seen it. Many, many times.

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So then those "millions laying in the ground" is anecdotal evidence? I'm sure they might disagree if still living. But how about you speak to a soldier that earned a Purple Heart getting shot by a FMJ bullet? I assure you none of them liked it. And I once served with a guy shot three different times. He didn't like any of the three and only survived because of modern medicine and helicopters.

Rule3 said:

With handgun ammo there is no real "hydrostic shock" as the bullet is not going fast enough.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/a-gel-expert-explains.857971/#post-11271877

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Hmmm, I”m not a fan of blanket statements, so I think that a bit of a reach to say there isn’t any hydrostatic energy (shock) from a handgun bullet because of low velocity.

If that was the case every water filled milk jug shot with a handgun would develop an entry hole, an exit hole, and then all the contained water would simply leak out. Since most jugs I’ve shot and seen with handguns rupture and spray water all over, something has been transferred to this non-compressible fluid to create that reaction.

Now, with a small caliber-low velocity handgun round there will most likely be be much less force (shock) transferred to the static fluids than a larger-higher velocity handgun or much faster rifle round would apply. Also, one may surmise that this transfer effect will be positively or negatively affected by bullet shape and expansion (if any) as wider/flatter surfaces displace more fluid at speed less efficiently than rounded or pointed ones do. The variances in the resulting rupture and droplet spray pattern would tend to show an increased or decreased energy transfer affected by in the simple milk jug example.

Since the human body is estimated to be 60% (overall) watery fluids, with the delicate brain over 70% and lungs 80%+ watery fluids, the energy transfer to such fluid-filled masses from handgun bullets must have some sort of rapidly occurring effect as the .45 bullet goes from 1,240 mph (850 fps) to zero in roughly 18”.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/...ce_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

Does this mean a mans head or lungs explode like a water jug when shot with a handgun? Not at all. But at autopsy it does show the the innards of the lungs or head are seriously damaged in a wider area as fluid is displaced from the energy imparted by the handgun bullet into the watery organ. (“Hydrostatic shock”)

Again, there is not as dramatic an effect as the 2,700 fps .30-06 rifle bullet does, but it’s there nonetheless.

Stay safe.

Get 2 ea new metal 1 gal paint cans from big box store. Fill each with water to the top, hammer on the lid. Find a flat rock and put a quarter on it and set one can centered on the quarter. At 10-15 yds shoot it with a 30-06. You usially won't find the quarter, but in the botton of the can you will see the impression of the quarter.

Repeat with a 38 or 45 with flat meplat, loaded to self-defense level. You can usually find the quarter.

Hydrostatic shock in action

Riomouse911 said:

Hmmm, I”m not a fan of blanket statements, so I think that a bit of a reach to say there isn’t any hydrostatic energy (shock) from a handgun bullet because of low velocity.

If that was the case every water filled milk jug shot with a handgun would develop an entry hole, an exit hole, and then all the contained water would simply leak out. Since most jugs I’ve shot and seen with handguns rupture and spray water all over, something has been transferred to this non-compressible fluid to create that reaction.

Now, with a small caliber-low velocity handgun round there will most likely be be much less force (shock) transferred to the static fluids than a larger-higher velocity handgun or much faster rifle round would apply. Also, one may surmise that this transfer effect will be positively or negatively affected by bullet shape and expansion (if any) as wider/flatter surfaces displace more fluid at speed less efficiently than rounded or pointed ones do. The variances in the resulting rupture and droplet spray pattern would tend to show an increased or decreased energy transfer affected by in the simple milk jug example.

Since the human body is estimated to be 60% (overall) watery fluids, with the delicate brain over 70% and lungs 80%+ watery fluids, the energy transfer to such fluid-filled masses from handgun bullets must have some sort of rapidly occurring effect as the .45 bullet goes from 1,240 mph (850 fps) to zero in roughly 18”.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/...ce_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

Does this mean a mans head or lungs explode like a water jug when shot with a handgun? Not at all. But at autopsy it does show the the innards of the lungs or head are seriously damaged in a wider area as fluid is displaced from the energy imparted by the handgun bullet into the watery organ. (“Hydrostatic shock”)

Again, there is not as dramatic an effect as the 2,700 fps .30-06 rifle bullet does, but it’s there nonetheless.

Stay safe.

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OK your water jug "test" trumps and are more correct than Federal Ballisticans tests and data ,who are experts on the subject.

Plus no one mentioned that bullets (whatever kind) do not always penetrate straight, they tend to roll and tumble or get deflected off bone which will change EVERYTHING on what kind of damage is done.

I am out of here.

I was merely pointing out the fallacy that a handgun can’t transfer “hydrostatic shock” energy because the velocity is too low.
It does transfer energy to non-compressible fluids, which then transfer some energy to the surrounding mediums; tissue, plastic material holding the fluid, etc.
Not as much as a rifle.

That’s all I said using the simple visual of a water jug.
Life is far too short to blow a gasket over this.

Stay safe.

Riomouse911 said:

Since the human body is estimated to be 60% (overall) watery fluids, with the delicate brain over 70% and lungs 80%+ watery fluids, the energy transfer to such fluid-filled masses from handgun bullets must have some sort of rapidly occurring effect as the .45 bullet goes from 1,240 mph (850 fps) to zero in roughly 18”.

Click to expand...

Sorry but your 45acp bullet speed is way off. 850fps works out to 579 mph not 1,240 mph.

https://www.google.com/search?q=850+feet+per+second+in+miles+per+hour&oq=850+foot+per+second++&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i13i30j0i22i30l8.14345j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The math is pretty simple. Just multiply the speed of FPS times 3600, the amount of seconds in an hour. Then divide by 5280 the amount of feet in a mile.

A 30-06 bullet going 2700fps times 3600 = 9,720,000 feet divided by 5280 = 1,840.9 mph.

Two other methods are to multiply your FPS by 0.6818 and also by divide the fps by 1.467.