Curio & Relics FFL -03. Is it Time to Terminate the License?

C&R FFL 03. Is it Time to Terminate the License?


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IJ1981

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
463
Location
Coral Terrace, Florida
I first got mine in March , 2006. It was a paradise for Milsurps then. Rock bottom prices on Enfields,, Mogin Nagants, Swiss, Steyrs, Turkish,everything.

I bought more of these that I can remember , mainly from AimSurplus, J&G Sales and Southern Ohio Gun,. All great companies with fine customer service.

It was always a happy day when the big brown truck arrived at my door with the latest prize!

Those days are long gone. The bargains are gone. Prices have doubled and tripled since 2006. I did well. But to renew? Only $30 for 3 years, a bargain anywhere.

Also, I'm in my 70's and don't really need to add to the herd. But still....?.

Your thoughts, THR?
 
Only $30 for 3 years, a bargain anywhere.
Sure is! And When I buy a C&R pistol in Illinois, I take it home the same day. No waiting period. I bought an Argentine Mauser in Nebraska an the Cabela's World Headquarters. No 4473. I gave them a signed copy of my FFL some cash, and walked out with the gun.

There is another side bonus that I have found to be effective in arguments with the anti's. As soon as I tell them I have a Federal License to collect guns...it seems to pacify them somewhat. It seems less intimidating to them when the Federal Government is involved. After all, they just LOVE the feds getting involved in EVERYTHING!!
 
Your thoughts, THR?
It may be time to consider an 03 Collector's License to be "transactional" and not a perpetual thing. That is, identify the deal you want it for ahead of time, and apply for the license for that deal, or run of deals. (Planning to buy a C&R machine gun from out of state is probably the best example of this.) Such instances are rare. Otherwise, considering the dearth of deals on milsurps, maintaining an 03 license doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.
 
With the ATF pulling authority from the field agents and revocation decisions turned over to a computer algorithm the ATF wrote, yeah, I'd let it drop. From the article I read about "Spartan" (the algorithm), it is looking at anything out of place that will generate a revocation procedure.

And that in and of itself could trigger a visit. Hmm this guy let it expire, lets go knock on his door. I have a feeling if you renew it will be just another in the pile of all the others, but not.......
 
Or, we could quit playing the victim card and make thoughtful and well researched decisions, identify and evaluate the cost:benefit of the gray areas, and be respectful of people doing a difficult job, without supplying information or access that is not required. That, however, will not feed the social media algorithms or monetize future clickbait.
 
And that in and of itself could trigger a visit. Hmm this guy let it expire, lets go knock on his door. I have a feeling if you renew it will be just another in the pile of all the others, but not.......
Not really, since you have no longer have any requirement to keep a record of acquisitions and dispositions. My "bound book" was destroyed the day my C&R elapsed.
 
That does not mean you will not have a visit.
Huh?
There is nothing to prevent an ATF IOI or agent from visiting anyone, anywhere, anytime.

If YOU had ever held a C&R or taken the time to read the regulations you would know that holders of an 03FFL Collector of Curios & Relics do not have to submit to a compliance inspection at their premises, but can bring their bound book and meet the ATF IOI at any federal office. That ain't new, has nothing to do with SPARTAN and has been a regulation for decades.
 
A Type 3 FFL definitely does not have to go through the compliance inspections like a Type 1, Type 2, or any other type of FFL that is a business does. A Type 3 FFL is for collecting curios and relics and is NOT a business. As dogtown stated a Type 3 FFL can just take their bound book into an ATF office for an inspection.
 
Otherwise, considering the dearth of deals on milsurps, maintaining an 03 license doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.
I laugh and cry when I see this type of comment regarding the usefulness of a C&R.😥🤣
It isn't just "milsurps" and that makes me shake my head that people only equate "C&R" with military surplus when the eligible list of firearms is vast...........ANYTHING fifty years old or older is C&R.
There are a lot of wonderful guns made before 1973, literally millions more every year.

As far as "not worth the trouble"?
Oh good grief.

$30 for three years- I know people who spend more than that at Starbucks each week.
Virtually no oversight from ATF- The odds of a compliance inspection of an 03FFL are likely 1:500,000. Dealers who run 2,000 firearms a year through their books don't get inspected every year, there just arent enough IOI's.
Minimal recordkeeping- You record the manufacturer, model, serial#, type and caliber in your daily diary with the name and address of who you bought it from. I did that when I was fourteen because I knew thats good information to have. I figured if the guns were stolen I would want that info.


But hey, as a gun dealer I'll gladly take $20 from you for every gun transfer and I'll do the recordkeeping. You'll have to fill out a Form 4473, pass the FBI NICS check and I'll keep records of your transaction forever. When ATF does a firearms trace I'll email them a copy of your 4473 and guess who's door they'll be a knockin'?🤔

So tell us which is more trouble?😉
 
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Well, I didn't. But, even if I did, what would we talk about other than the weather? Last I checked, the 4th and 5th Amendments were still in force.
When you apply for a Federal Firearms License (of any type), you agree to abide by federal law and ATF regulations that apply to that FFL type.
For a C&R FFL that means providing the required records to ATF during a compliance inspection. You can choose to do so at your premises or theirs.

A compliance inspection is not a violation of any civil rights.

But as you say, AFTER you give up your C&R FFL, ATF would need a search warrant to enter your home.
 
...a number of sellers won't honor a C&R these days...even for firearms where there was no question about them being 50+ years old.
This right here. I dropped mine years and years ago for his very reason. I had a C&R for 6 years and never bought a single gun with it. Subsequently, I never had a bound book. I decided a long time ago that it wasn't worth the risk of being hassled by the ATF, given that it was essentially useless.
 
I don't get the focus on milsurps, there are plenty of non military firearms that are now over 50 yrs old that are available and that list keeps increasing every year; we just passed into the 50 year mark for the first year of Ruger Security Six revolvers, which are good revolvers that are no longer made!

If the purpose was to buy $100 bolt rifles cuz they were cheap, you're missing out on pricier, but still C&R eligible firearms.

Personally, if I had a C&R, I'd be hunting for H&R revolvers and pre GCA .25 automatics.

What keeps me from getting the 03 is stuff like Everytown posting the addresses of FFL's recently; all you are is one FOIA request and having your name and address released on an app or plug in that marks all C&R homes on google maps.

The other is the increasing number of those who aren't accepting the license, when gun dealers aren't accepting them, what good is the C&R?
 
Huh?
There is nothing to prevent an ATF IOI or agent from visiting anyone, anywhere, anytime.

If YOU had ever held a C&R or taken the time to read the regulations you would know that holders of an 03FFL Collector of Curios & Relics do not have to submit to a compliance inspection at their premises, but can bring their bound book and meet the ATF IOI at any federal office. That ain't new, has nothing to do with SPARTAN and has been a regulation for decades.

You are right, however I don't want to draw any attn to myself......guess that is why I am a loud mouth on the internet. Anything that would make a light come on in the ministry of love I want to avoid.
 
I don't get the focus on milsurps, there are plenty of non military firearms that are now over 50 yrs old that are available and that list keeps increasing every year; we just passed into the 50 year mark for the first year of Ruger Security Six revolvers, which are good revolvers that are no longer made!

If the purpose was to buy $100 bolt rifles cuz they were cheap, you're missing out on pricier, but still C&R eligible firearms.

Personally, if I had a C&R, I'd be hunting for H&R revolvers and pre GCA .25 automatics.

What keeps me from getting the 03 is stuff like Everytown posting the addresses of FFL's recently; all you are is one FOIA request and having your name and address released on an app or plug in that marks all C&R homes on google maps.

The other is the increasing number of those who aren't accepting the license, when gun dealers aren't accepting them, what good is the C&R?

You don't get the focus, but there are a great many that do. For those that went through the effort, no matter how small to get a C&R the purpose was not a $100 rifle left in a trench for 100 years.

I hate, as in HATE with every fiber of my existence the phrase "I could explain it but you wouldn't understand. It suggests that you can't understand anything and I can't explain anything. I know the second it true but it is not going to stop me anyway.

For me, and a great deal of other collectors the draw is the history. You can hold an old rifle, look at it and just think where has this old girl been. What has she done, and what has she seen. My trapdoor, was it looking at indians or spanish.....both? Or did it sit in a rack in New Jersey its entire life, there is value to those as well. I have a few rack queens and just the feel of those "almost new" versions against what is normally seen in the wild is amazing. Every "that is junk" can be removed by looking at one fresh example. The "spongy" MN bolt is just not there on my fresh one, the slop in the Carcano bolt is just not there on my fresh one.

I do also enjoy "sporting" arms of a bygone era, but those need to be unique. A pre 64 70.....well that is nice and all, but it is a bolt action and that just does nothing to me. Now that Remington 8 that is something interesting, you learn by shooting these, and you have fun working up loads to make them shoot as well as possible.

I have rifles I will never fire, and that "look" like they have never been fired. The last one a Daisy 22. In all its pot metal and plastic glory it is just fantastic, but also it is about as cheap as a rifle can be. Really a pretty poor gun by standards you measure guns by, but it is just the most fantastic 22 I own, and I will never shoot it.

And most people will never get that as well.
 
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