Riding the waves of emotion in self defense training

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

FriedRice

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
175
Hi all, I posted this on another forum a few days ago. Some of you on that forum saw this before as well as the discussion that came after. A PM from a friend here reminded me there are viewpoints I bring that can be valuable because they are "fresh." You don't know me as well here but I think this post may have some value in this forum. I wrote it and I've changed a few things in it, but I think I own it, mods correct me if I'm wrong. I'm okay now, as much as one can be when they are experiencing this:

I finished day 2 of defensive handgun today. The first day and a half were fun. They taught me new skills and brought out my competitive side. It felt like shooting for sport. Then it changed.

I had a new experience and it was uncomfortable. We were indoors, learning to shoot while backing away from the BG. I watched a friend who I know has a very active security threat do this exercise. I saw in his face that he went from "learning good skills" to stopping an attacker. In my head, I had a "flash foward" for lack of a better word. It was me fending off the BG and putting massive wounds at COM. It went like this "lung, lung, heart, heart, spine/aorta, liver, lots of blood, guts." I finished the drill and did fine but stepped outside to collect myself. I don't think anyone else knew but it got very real for me. The reality of being in that situation settled on me and I got clammy, nauseated and dropped a few tears outside. I asked around to see how it was for everyone else. They were still up in their heads talking about skills and I was in my body feeling how serious this choice is.

I haven't changed my mind about my willingness to use whatever level of force is required to stop a deadly threat. I'm just kind of shaken. I have threats beyond the average predator. Some of their faces I know. It just got real. I had an out of body moment of "how did I get here and will I be okay if I have to do this?" I don't carry a gun as a lucky rabbit's foot anymore.
 
Congradulations

You realize this isn't a game, from those I know, and those I have dealt with, you probably could emotionally handle a SD situation and the aftermath. Reality isn't pretty, it's ugly, gritty and damn dirty. And hopefully, like me, you will never have to experience it first hand.

Talk about it with your instructor, maybe he can refer you to a police office or instructor who has had a duty shooting or similar, also, he has to do the intro, as much like soldiers, it's not something spoken of lightly, or with strangers.
 
Thanks for sharing the story.

I'm glad you experienced these feelings. Now you know far better what to expect and how to handle it. You have had what a friend would call "revelation of knowledge." For you it is more than cerebral. Which might give you an advantage over the average weekend commando.
 
Yes, I had a painful epiphany. And I had a friend who helped me through the worst of it. I also had overwhelming support from the other forum members. People talked about what it was like to watch someone die.

I post here, less for support, but more to provoke thought and perhaps actions for those who carry. I'm open to feedback from others here, but this is more for everyone else. I still carry. I now know some of the gravity of this decision. There is more training but something fundamental in me has shifted. I don't want to be in a world where I have to defend myself and potentially fire those shots. But I am. So I move forward from here.
 
I think all should feel this at some point and at some level. Most are not confident enough to articulate it to the group. I feel less comfortable with those ready to end a life for a legitimate reason and don't feel the way you do.

You not wanting to take a friend to the range who is not emotionally stable shows that you actually understand the responsibility of carrying. Good reasoning!

I would not hesitate to protect me or mine, but I know I would be affected negatively afterwards.

Thanks for the post.
 
So would, will, most people, and those that don't either feel righteous or mostly nothing... and those are the ones that concern the psychologist.

Those that enjoy it, they consider already gone.
 
Remember, the guy beating you will not care what he damages. Learn the proper techniques to stop this quickly.
 
I suspect that it was not the training that got you so emotional.
There's probably something else going on in your life that is causing you great stress.
 
When I took my first level Utah concealed carry class, I had similar realizations, although much less visceral. I was thinking, "Do I really want to be the guy who does this to another person?" I knew I was not even close to being ready to carry, so I completed the course but did not file the paperwork (no Utah lic. yet). I subsequently have gotten MUCH better at shooting and gun handling, but still don't feel carrying would fit into my lifestyle (church, YMCA locker room, changing into scrubs at work, kids hugging me all the time, in and out of the car with a snug seat etc etc.)

Until I come to terms with all that, I will NOT carry on a daily basis...
 
ActionJax said:
When I took my first level Utah concealed carry class, I had similar realizations, although much less visceral. I was thinking, "Do I really want to be the guy who does this to another person?" I knew I was not even close to being ready to carry, so I completed the course but did not file the paperwork (no Utah lic. yet). I subsequently have gotten MUCH better at shooting and gun handling, but still don't feel carrying would fit into my lifestyle (church, YMCA locker room, changing into scrubs at work, kids hugging me all the time, in and out of the car with a snug seat etc etc.)

Until I come to terms with all that, I will NOT carry on a daily basis...
Click to expand...
Why not ask this question instead:

"Do I really want to let someone else do this to me or my kids when I have the ability to prevent it?"
 
easyg said:
I suspect that it was not the training that got you so emotional.
There's probably something else going on in your life that is causing you great stress.
Click to expand...
I suspect that you haven't given enough consideration to what it will really mean to end someone's life. You frighten me.

ActionJax has. And I commend him for that. Using a firearm for defense should be thought out very carefully, and trained for. It may take awhile for some people to arrive at their conclusions on how they wish to protect themselves and their family. Carrying a firearm is not for everyone. I have chosen this and so have others. But I have chosen it now with my eyes open.
 
Last edited:
The book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman may help you understand more about the topic.
 
I suspect that you haven't given enough consideration to what it will really mean to end someone's life. You frighten me.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a visit to the nearest high security prison would add another dimension to your epiphany and the wisdom of CCW.
 
I suspect that you haven't given enough consideration to what it will really mean to end someone's life. You frighten me.
Click to expand...
Maybe having spent six years in the U.S. Army has hardened me a bit, but no, I definitely know what it really means to end the life of another man.

But I think that you missed my point....

The reality of being in that situation settled on me and I got clammy, nauseated and dropped a few tears outside.
Click to expand...
As realistic as firearms training can be, it's not THAT realistic.
And no matter how much training you give a man, there's no telling how he will act or react when it's "for real".
I know this for a fact, firsthand.

But I honestly doubt that it was the training that had such an effect upon you.
It is probably something else eating at you.
This is not to say that self defense with a firearm is something to be taken lightly....
It's not!
However, training does not typically have this effect on people.
I've been through my share of combat training and force-on-force training, and I've seen many men go through such training.
And such a reaction is not the norm to training.
In fact, such a response to mere training would probably get you an appointment with the battalion shrink if you were in the military.

I'm not attacking you or implying that you're not up to the task of self defense.

All I'm saying is that you might have other things going on in your life....stuff that is manifesting itself during your training.
It could be stuff that you think you have a handle on or stuff that you think hasn't really affected you that much.
The mind is a strange and amazing thing.
 
Creature said:
Perhaps a visit to the nearest high security prison would add another dimension to your epiphany and the wisdom of CCW.
Click to expand...
Did you catch the part where I said I still carry? The person on the other end of the bullet isn't always going to be a clear cut awful, evil, pedophile. The world is not that black and white. The reason why people don't talk about their emotions about this online is because there is often a severe "slap" such as this. It's unfortunate, and a great disservice to people who have had to end the lives of others in not so black and white conditions. Emotions are not weakness. They are a part of the human condition. We were not designed as mindless killing machines. I imagine others have read this thread and felt similar feelings as I. I hope that if they ever choose to come forward and discuss their emotions they are met with grace and compassion.

EasyG, I appreciate your explanation and retract my comment. Your assumption is that I am male. And yes, there are other factors as to why I need to carry a firearm. I am not in combat and was not raised as a warrior. Given that I am female, of course there is baggage that will be stirred up. I understand this happens sometimes to men as well during training (outside military).
 
Last edited:
Ha ha, I assumed dude too.

I didn't quite understand the tears, but wouldn't judge based on other posts. My wife tears up at things that just make my gut feel different, but if we were attacked I feel confident she would take care of business first and feel after. Kind of like you did during training.

Did you perform ok during the drill?

Easy G, good response as usual. I thought you were hard on "him" at first also. Thanks for taking care of us here at home!
 
Last edited:
I definitely got the task done and finished out the training without that flash affecting my level of skill.
 
FriedRice,

My wife (an accomplished shooter, trainer, and one of the founders of NC's Ladies' Handgun Clinics, several decades ago) says I should tell you that response is only likely to happen to you once, and better it happen first in training than in real life.

She also says that lots of the guys here seem worried about what their own responses might be in the face of such a realization, were they to ever have one.

Congratulations on your training, and especially your new-found self awareness. Especially on the realization that a gun is not a talisman.

lpl
 
Lee, that is a comforting thought. Please thank your wife for me. I didn't know that I hadn't really "gotten" it until after I had that flash. I thought I was all prepared, but it was just in my head. I know it will never be easy, but I think I will be okay if ever have to act.
 
I read your first post on the thread aloud to her across the room- she's a member at THR, but is pretty much too wound up with teaching and studying (she's in her third semester of a Mandarin Chinese class) to spend much time here, unfortunately. She was over on her computer working on material for the terrorism class she's teaching this semester but I wanted to get her take on what you said. Something else that really resonated with her was this sentence- They were still up in their heads talking about skills and I was in my body feeling how serious this choice is.

She reports the same sort of differential reaction to her own training experience and life experience, though she talks about 'head stuff' on the one hand and 'stomach stuff' on the other.

Kudos to you, and thanks for the insight,

lpl
 
Remember, the guy beating you will not care what he damages.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Emotions have NO PLACE in defense unless they ENHANCE your survival.

Your potential adversary gives exactly JACK and SQUAT about your mental and physical well being. PERIOD.

You need to be detached, mechanical, and decisive in training and APPLYING defensive techniques. If you DO WHAT IT TAKES to STOP THE THREAT to you and yours, IT DOESN'T matter. KNOW the law and be confident in taking violent action within the law.

Mindset.

I'M going to survive, HAVE survived, AND I sleep soundly at night knowing I did what I HAD to do to survive DESPITE the actions of others that intended to do me malice.
 
Slomo
Please NEVER get in to a really tragic or traumatic event, with your attitude, once you go beyond coping, bad things happen.

Emotions are best recognized, and understanding them, the action taken,
that's not to say you point the gun and just can't do it, but rather, understand that this is going to suck for everyone, time to do what it takes to live another day.
 
Shadow, I agree with you. However, I am not in combat. I suspect those that are don't have the luxury to mull over feelings about it. It sucks for them but they get the job done. Different circumstances. Also different outcome. Some never adjust to civilian life after that. The average armed citizen is in a different position. And I'm not that either. I have tough judgment calls to make, and having examined my emotions from many different angles, and trained well, I'm fairly confident I can make good choices. Like I said, my performance did not suffer after my wave of feelings. I am also female and look at things differently. It's not culturally accepted in warrior circles to have or display emotions about killing. After my initial flippant remark to EasyG, I kind of got where he was coming from. That's a lesson for them, not me.
 
Slomo
Please NEVER get in to a really tragic or traumatic event, with your attitude, once you go beyond coping, bad things happen.

Emotions are best recognized, and understanding them, the action taken,
that's not to say you point the gun and just can't do it, but rather, understand that this is going to suck for everyone, time to do what it takes to live another day.
Click to expand...

Are you intentionally trying to be insulting?

My opinion is based on experience dealing with deadly threats in places like Rio Hato, Panama, Mosul and Baqubah, Iraq, and all over Afghanistan. Every action I have taken has stemmed from a logical and deliberate need to apply force, which applies directly to self defense in the civilian world. My experience has shown that deadly force situations are best handled and solved using a systematic and logical approach, devoid of emotion that can clutter rational thought, and inhibit action.

This doesn't make one a homicidal sociopath...

Logic and action is what should drive defense, not emotion, and training needs to emphasize this point. There is no time to "ride the emotional roller coaster" when you are staring down the barrel of a gun...or two, and the sooner a defender develops a mindset revolving around a logical approach to solving deadly force problems, the better.

Odds are, a potential adversary won't be inhibited by fear or guilt when they perpetrate their crime. Nor should the defender be when trying to save ones life.
 
However, I am not in combat. I suspect those that are don't have the luxury to mull over feelings about it.
Click to expand...

Those in combat do have the luxury to mull over it but it's usually much later. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing. If it's much later you could have the build up of many kills which some people can't handle.

In my opinion, a self defense situation is usually more traumatic because it's over rather quickly and then you have the stress of the police questioning you and your freedom, your family and your whole self being put into question immediatly after.

In combat you push through it because you have a job to do, you have others' lives relying on your performance. Plus in combat it's usually not the kiling of the enemy that affects you it's the enemy killing those around you. We've always "dehumanized" the enemy with names. Gerry, Kraut, Japs, Gooks, Reds, Ragheads, Camel Jokeys, Skinnies, etc.

In combat you usually don't have someone questioning your actions and threating your freedom within minutes of what you've done.

I also think those in the military, especially those in a combat MOS, most are way more prepared for having to take a life than your every day civilian.

I agree with Slomo 100%.

Emotions are best recognized, and understanding them, the action taken,
that's not to say you point the gun and just can't do it, but rather, understand that this is going to suck for everyone, time to do what it takes to live another day.
Click to expand...

That is what Slomo is saying. It's fine to have the emotion and it's fine to understand the outcome and repercussions, but the instant of defense IS NOT the time to have them. You will hesitate and you will die.

Get over those emotions and accept the repercussions BEFORE it's needed.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Training in Flagstaff Arizona this weekend
Replies
2
Views
302
Strategies, Tactics, and Training
brownie0486
B
B
  • Locked
Integrated Threat Focused Training coming to Flagstaff, AZ
Replies
1
Views
435
Strategies, Tactics, and Training
brownie0486
B
B
  • Locked
Trained skills
Replies
0
Views
345
Strategies, Tactics, and Training
brownie0486
B
K
  • Locked
My train ride to work.
Replies
13
Views
924
Strategies, Tactics, and Training
MisterMike
M
O
interesting self-defense incident
Replies
72
Views
4K
Strategies, Tactics, and Training
Simple Shooter
Simple Shooter
Top Bottom
Back