bikemutt
Member
We should all be worried then; what if the gun comes into the picture before you get the disclosure opportunity reasonably presenting itself?
Obligation to Notify vs. Advised to Notify - Virginia
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We should all be worried then; what if the gun comes into the picture before you get the disclosure opportunity reasonably presenting itself?
NavyLCDR
member
In my humble opinion... I think part of the reason we have such an anti-gun society is that we as gun owners insist upon treating a gun as something that poses danger to the public when carried by the law abiding citizen.
My gun in my holster is no more of a danger to anyone other than a criminal attacking me than my cell phone is in my pocket. But if I, a pro-gun guy who carries a gun, treats it like an object that is a danger to others and to police officers, then what message am I demonstrating to the public? I am only re-enforcing what the Brady Bunch and the anti-gun media are telling the public - that the gun itself is the danger, regardless of who is carrying it.
Again, in my humble opinion.
My gun in my holster is no more of a danger to anyone other than a criminal attacking me than my cell phone is in my pocket. But if I, a pro-gun guy who carries a gun, treats it like an object that is a danger to others and to police officers, then what message am I demonstrating to the public? I am only re-enforcing what the Brady Bunch and the anti-gun media are telling the public - that the gun itself is the danger, regardless of who is carrying it.
Again, in my humble opinion.
ATBackPackin
Member
Hello CDR,
They may not have a legitimate reason to ask, but at least one did in Virginia Beach a couple of years ago. I was on my way to a Christmas party and was stopped for going 45 in a 35. The officer knew the owner of the vehicle I was driving had a CHP before he got out of his car. Once he verified I was the owner of the vehicle he asked me if I was carrying tonight. I told him "no", since I had planned on having a couple drinks that I left my gun at home. He thanked me for the information, gave me a warning for the speeding and told me to make sure if I had more than a couple drinks to let someone else drive home. I was a little embarrassed for being stopped for speeding but it didn't bother me at all that the officer had ask if I was carrying. Not sure if the outcome would have been different had I said "yes", but doubt it.
PCC, USN Retired
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Bobson
Member
That should go without saying. Is there a single state that doesn't have a law requiring you to answer truthfully, if the officer does explicitly ask if you're carrying? I know Arizona does - Misconduct Involving Weapons, 13-3102. A. 1. B.
Interesting thing is the code only specifies that you must answer truthfully if you're concealing a weapon. I'd imagine that's interpreted more in the spirit of the law, in that if you're carrying, you better be truthful if asked.
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ATBackPackin
Member
I guess you miss my main point. I don't think that for the person being pulled over, nothing good can come out of me informing the officer that I have a legally owned and carried firearm.
JohnBT
Member
I never miss a chance to talk about guns. And how things have changed since my father joined the state police after WWII. And what police work was like when my cousin was a county sheriff way back when.
Okay, I admit it, I never miss a chance to talk.
Okay, I admit it, I never miss a chance to talk.
ATBackPackin
Member
I never miss a chance to talk about guns. And how things have changed since my father joined the state police after WWII. And what police work was like when my cousin was a county sheriff way back when.
Okay, I admit it, I never miss a chance to talk.
I miss it as well and wish things were still the same. My problem is that today way too many officers fear civilians with guns and they have nothing to fear from me. Unfortunately I have no way to distinguish between the two and the last thing I want during a stop is an officer trying to disarm me.
Yes I realize this is not all officers or even the majority, but how am I supposed distinguish between them?
Shawn
wojownik
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Somewhat related question. Several folks have noted that the PO can find out about a CHP by running in the plates. What about the situation of a jointly-owned vehicle - two names, not so hypothetically one who happens to have a CHP, the other without?
mljdeckard
Member
Do you know if the police in your state are notified that you are a permit holder when they run your plate or license?
wojownik
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Yes - As with the OP, I also reside in VA (the Old Dominion, as my location sez).
I can easily see a situation get awkard-to-bad if the dear wife got pulled over in the family SUV by an over-eager PO. She doesn't carry, probably never will, but might not handle an aggressive PO very well. Anywhat, that's what came to mind in re-reading this thread...
I can easily see a situation get awkard-to-bad if the dear wife got pulled over in the family SUV by an over-eager PO. She doesn't carry, probably never will, but might not handle an aggressive PO very well. Anywhat, that's what came to mind in re-reading this thread...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Probably the same thing would happen as if it was a singularly-owned vehicle.
IF the officer is twitchy about such things, s/he may ask if there are any firearms in the vehicle. If you wife says, "No," that should be the end of it.
If the officer for some twisted reason doesn't believe her, and feel they have some articulable reason to perform a search, your wife does not have to consent ("No, officer, I do not consent to any searches.") but beyond that she should follow the officer's instructions. Fight such harassment with the department later.
IF the officer is twitchy about such things, s/he may ask if there are any firearms in the vehicle. If you wife says, "No," that should be the end of it.
If the officer for some twisted reason doesn't believe her, and feel they have some articulable reason to perform a search, your wife does not have to consent ("No, officer, I do not consent to any searches.") but beyond that she should follow the officer's instructions. Fight such harassment with the department later.
NavyLCDR
member
In Washington they can be. The Washington State Department of Licensing tracks all CPLs in the state and can cross reference by Name, Driver's License number used to obtain the CPL with, and even handgun serial numbers if purchased or transferred from an FFL in the state of Washington.
CPLs are not tied to license plate numbers only, but the license plate number returns the name and driver's license number of the registered owner which can them be used to obtain CPL status, and list of handguns purchased from Washington FFLs.
In MN there is no duty to inform, but since I do not know all the rules of every state I might happen to be in, so I will inform the LEO just to always be in the habit of it. For instance, MN and WI have reciprocity, and I drive through WI frequently and if you are in the area you know how WSP is on 94. I have no idea if WI has a duty to inform so I will anyway.
PS, yes I know I should probably read up on all the rules and regs for every state I know I will be driving in.
PS, yes I know I should probably read up on all the rules and regs for every state I know I will be driving in.
BlisteringSilence
Member
I suppose that you can distinguish between the two the same way they can distinguish between you and an actual bad guy.
And I don't know about you, but the last thing I want during a stop is to get shot and killed.
I can't speak for anywhere but Arkansas. Here, your CHL is associated with your Driver's License. DL numbers are NOT linked with LPN's, so I won't get a CHL return until I've run your DL.
NavyLCDR
member
BlisteringSilence said:
In every state, calling in the license plate number will return the name of the registered owner and the dates that registration is valid, correct?
Now, can't you call in a name and get a driver's license number associated with that name?
Then can't you take the driver's license returned and ask if there are valid carry permits?
BlisteringSilence
Member
So, what you're suggesting is that I have dispatch:
- Run a tag with a readback (make sure the car's not wanted).
- Run the registered owner(s) through the QNF (Query Name File) to get DL information (and God forbid that plate returns to John Smith).
- Take the QNF results and run them through ACIC/NCIC and see if they come back with a CHL.
Yeah, as nice as that would be, its not going to happen. We don't each have our own assigned dispatchers, and they're busy.
I guess it's a regional thing, but I (and you) don't have anything to lose by telling an officer (or someone telling me) that they have a legally-carried handgun. However, if I get the sense that you're evading my questions, or catch sight that you're hiding a gun from me (even though in your mind you are simply not telling me that you're packing), things go from cool friendly to red alert really, really fast, and you end up face down on the ground next to your car at gunpoint over what you thin is a misunderstanding.
And while its not a crime, and you'll get to go home, I don't know ANYONE that likes to be held at gunpoint. Sam above stated that
Let me tell you, if you hide the fact that you're carrying a gun from me and I find out about it, I'm going to assume you're a bad guy, and treat you as such, and I don't know a single officer that would act any differently. I will never understand while certain people would not willing identify themselves as a not-criminal under the fallacy that they're protecting their rights.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'm carrying concealed, and I'm not volunteering that information without need. If that in itself causes you to treat me as a criminal, then we'll deal with that afterward and I will do what I can to have my complaint placed in your personal file. Carrying a firearm is not a crime and not notifying you that I am is not a crime (in my state) and the combination of the two is not evidense of a crime nor reasonable suspicion that I am engaged in criminal behavior. Now if you ASK and someone lies to you, I can understand that sending up a red flag.
How can I identify myself as a "non-criminal?" (And, more importantly, why should I have to?) Do they sell a t-shirt for that, or can I get it on a bumper sticker? That would save a lot of time!
Wait, found it!
NavyLCDR
member
That is simply not true. First, absent a state law requiring notification, there is nothing to be gained by telling the offcier. Second, informing the officer of the presence of the firearm is an invitation for that officer to take the gun "for officer safety" and, in doing so, placing myself, the officer, and innocent bystanders in danger by the uneccessary handling of a firearm under less than ideal conditions.
So, you will face plant a person at gunpoint for engaging in a legal activity that they have a right to engage in because they did not tell you they were engaging in the legal activity? REALLY?!? I would suggest you have a serious talk with your training officer regarding this practice as you will end up costing your boss a lot of money someday in a lawsuit. Your attitude is EXACTLY the reason WHY I won't tell you about my lawfully possessed firearm.
So what you are telling us is that you don't know a single officer that knows what the 4th amendment says, respects and honors it? And you really want us to tell you about our guns? I won't tell you about my gun because I fear you. I don't fear you.
Living in N. Va, and commuting through Fairfax County, I've only been stopped once by FCPD - and once by Culpeper Co Sheriff Deputy, since I've had my CHP. I was not carrying both times, and told the officers as much when I handed them my license and my permit. Both handed me the permit back and told me they didnt need it, and both cut me a considerable amount of slack. Maybe conincidence, or just luck, but I prefer to think it was a result of both of us being polite and coureous, as well as my attempt to ensure the officer knew I was not a bad guy. YEMV
NavyLCDR
member
Living in W. Wa, and commuting through Snohomish County, I've only been stopped once by WASP - and once by Snohomish Co Sheriff Deputy, since I've had my CPL. I was carrying both times, and never told the officers anything when I handed them my license and my military ID card. Both cut me a considerable amount of slack - let me go with a warning, not even a ticket. Maybe conincidence, or just luck, but I prefer to think it was a result of both of us being polite and coureous, as well as my attempt to ensure the officer knew I was not a bad guy. YEMV
BlisteringSilence
Member
See, here's the rub. If Joe on the street is packing in his car, he is presumed to be breaking the law. Arkansas Code 5-73-120:
Code:
5-73-120. Carrying a weapon.
(a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.
...
(c) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that at the time of the act of carrying a weapon:
...
(8) The person is in a motor vehicle and the person has a license to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to § 5-73-301 et seq.Moreover, I don't have to ask you a question, and you specifically lie about it for you to engage in a lie (I was raised Catholic, and the Nuns at school were very specific about lies of omission). Deception is a red flag. Moreover, it's not the mark of an honest person. When your deception is combined with a gun, that's like 30 red flags.
Nothing would make me happier than to tattoo "THUG" on the forehead of the criminal to set them apart from the good people. God knows it'd make my job easier. But until that happens, when people conceal the fact that they have a gun from me, I'm going to go with my training and experience, and assume that they're a bad guy until proven otherwise.
Also, I love that shirt.
I can think of a few neighborhoods where it could be handed out.FTFY. Weasel words man. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I don't know what kind of fairy cloud you're living on, but back here on earth where the rest of us are hanging out, a guy that hides a gun during a traffic stop is a thug until proven otherwise. As per the statute that I quoted above, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. You have an affirmative defense to prosecution, but you have still violated that statue. Until I can satisfy that you fall into one of the eight exceptions to that statute, you are going to be presumed guilty (and to head off the obvious straw man rant, no, you are not presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's for the court system. For those of us on the pointy end of the spear, you're a thug until proven otherwise).
Moreover, I don't see how any reasonable person (and you have now demonstrated yourself to be anything but reasonable) would want anything other than speed and courtesy in their interactions with the police. Why would you willingly introduce the possibility of being proned out if it can be avoided?
When you lie to the police, and conceal the fact that you have a concealed weapon, you have now placed yourself squarely into the Terry exception to the 4th. Amendments aren't absolute. You're protected against UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. When you lie, the search is no longer unreasonable.
I just don't understand your kind. There's nothing illegal about your actions. You absolutely have the right to act like moron. I just don't know why you would chose to do so. But, if there's anything I've learned, I will really never understand people's motivations.
So, do what you want, and reap what you sow. And best of luck out there.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
BlisteringSilence, in my state, I am not required to notify the officer that I am carrying a weapon. Nothing in the fact that I chose not to notify him is a LIE, "of omission" or otherwise. The matter is not pertinent to the stop. I have no obligation, duty, or moral compuntion to offer that information -- or any other information not having to do with the matter of my traffic violation. Is it a lie of omission that I don't also tell him what I ate for dinner, the color of my socks, or anything else I might know that doesn't have anything to do with why we're having the little roadside chat?
That doesn't make me a criminal, and gives the officer no probable cause to put me on the pavement. An officer who discovers somehow that I am armed, and prones me out because of that fact alone, will be discussing the matter with his Chief at the very least. The presence of a weapon does not equate to me presenting a deadly threat to him.
Further, and perhaps you missed this point before, I have perfectly sound reasons for not wanting to introduce the persence of my firearm as a topic of discussion with the officer. It isn't a matter of proving that I'm a good guy or not a criminal. Officers' responses to such information tend to be all over the map. Some are very bad. In my state, there is a precident of a serious abuse of a misguided system that has prompted some officers to confiscate legally-owned firearms from drivers. I'm going to avoid that if I at all can.
That doesn't make me a criminal, and gives the officer no probable cause to put me on the pavement. An officer who discovers somehow that I am armed, and prones me out because of that fact alone, will be discussing the matter with his Chief at the very least. The presence of a weapon does not equate to me presenting a deadly threat to him.
Further, and perhaps you missed this point before, I have perfectly sound reasons for not wanting to introduce the persence of my firearm as a topic of discussion with the officer. It isn't a matter of proving that I'm a good guy or not a criminal. Officers' responses to such information tend to be all over the map. Some are very bad. In my state, there is a precident of a serious abuse of a misguided system that has prompted some officers to confiscate legally-owned firearms from drivers. I'm going to avoid that if I at all can.
NavyLCDR
member
BlisteringSilence said:
I'm sorry, officer, I simply will not waive my 4th Amendment rights for the sake of speed and courtesy during our interaction (and I can certainly refuse to waive my 4th amendment rights and remain courteous while doing so, so courtesy really has nothing to do with it). And I certainly will not engage in a voluntary encounter with a police officer who is incapable of engaging in a mature, rational or professional discussion.
N003k
Member
I've got to ask, appearantly BlisteringSilence, you consider not saying anything to be a 'lie of omission'. So, does that mean I should sit there racking my brain for any potentially dangerous object in my car if pulled over, lest I lie to the officer? Should I mention the tire iron in my trunk? Should I tell you "My car has gas", afterall, I could do some damage to you with that...
What if I just have a small pocket knife I always carry around, should I jump to saying that I have a knife in my pocket?
The only reason to tell the officer is if the law requires it, and if you assume every person that ran a stop sign or sped a bit to be a hardened criminal if you notice one of those many things if they didn't jump up and tell you, then, honestly, I have a feeling it's only a matter of time until you get your department sued, unless your posts are internet bravado.
What if I just have a small pocket knife I always carry around, should I jump to saying that I have a knife in my pocket?
The only reason to tell the officer is if the law requires it, and if you assume every person that ran a stop sign or sped a bit to be a hardened criminal if you notice one of those many things if they didn't jump up and tell you, then, honestly, I have a feeling it's only a matter of time until you get your department sued, unless your posts are internet bravado.
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