BP Defense Gun Question

I HAVE one...it never runs out of ammo!

When they used those single shots, it was invariably in conjunction with a cutlass, very large Bowie or some other large, edged weapon.

So which would be better for defense, steel shot or lead? Keeping a good bowie knife handy is a good idea, I keep my bowie knife by my bedside along with my revolver, my rifle, and a couple other surprises. I'd sure feel sorry for the poor home invader who breaks into my house. They'd get one heck of a surprise!

Levi

^
I don't know how I got in this thread anyway.. saw the BP and had something else on the brain maybe.
Anyway, I can see how steel balls/shot could provide some certain and perhaps additional utility but one could/can get some nasty bounce back.. I'd just use hardish lead.

Billy Shears: By that logic, you should get a sword. Millions more were killed by swords for century after century before firearms were invented.

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This thread is about a black powder gun for defense. If you want to discuss the lethality of swords, then by all means, start your own thread about them.

Yes, a BP gun is lethal and you can use it for SD if that's how you wanna roll.

If any other suggestion is shot down I don't really see much need for discussion.

/thread

I agree completely. I have a Brass-Frame 1858 Remington. I keep it loaded. It was my first pistol. I will use it for self defense and will never feel unarmed or defenseless with it. That being said, you need to PRACTICE with it. TRAIN with it. Don't ever just buy a gun and decide that you feel comfortable to use it for protection without training.

This thread is about a black powder gun for defense. If you want to discuss the lethality of swords, then by all means, start your own thread about them.

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I was making a point, and could have used any pre-gunpowder weapon, like swords, or bows, or spears, or whatever, to make it -- namely, to say "millions were killed by... 'nuff said" is not really correct. It's not enough. What also needs to be said is that obsolete weapons, while they are still as deadly, and certainly as capable of killing as they ever were, are still, at the end of the day, obsolete. It's like picking a new fighter plane and saying "the P-51 Mustang shot down thousands of planes. 'Nuff said." But would anyone put the Mustang in front line service today? Of course not. It's obsolete. It was great in its day, but there are more effective fighters around now.

If an obsolete weapon is all you've got, then it makes sense to use it. If you have any choice in the matter, however, you would be taking needless and unjustifiable chances using one for self defense when far better tools are available for the job nowadays. If it's a matter of self defense, then nothing less than your life is at stake (and possibly that of your loved ones as well), I can't think of any good reason to deliberately choose a less practical weapon for that job. It's different if you have the choice forced upon you; then you make the best of your situation and use the most effective tool you can get. But if you have a choice, a modern cartridge handgun, using modern self-defense ammo, is incontrovertibly a better choice.

It's funny how many people go out of their way to chime into a black-powder defense thread about how much better modern options are.... It's like someone asking questions about rimfires and someone else comes along declaring how wonderful .357 magnum is. I read your posts and see that you have plenty of firearms experience. Also, I have many cartridge-firing guns that are my primary go-to's for defense, but as someone already said, my blackpowder guns are certainly not the last guns I'd reach for... I don't have any larger than .44, but the .61/20 gauge seems awesome for the OP's criteria!

anyhoo, I've read this whole thread (took me a while) and there have been some worthwhile posts here and there . When my black powder guns are clean, they are loaded. I don't get to shoot them as often as I'd like, as the indoor range I'm a member-with does not allow black powder shooting. Mine have gone several months between shoots more often than not. Also my two 1851's and 1847 have each spent a year+ loaded in the safe, with the anti-moisture packets, (each at a different point in time) before firing, just to see how it goes after all that time. After the year+ tests, I remember at least one shot delayed by a half-second or so, but that is the only problem to report. Granted I do not live in a Marina, but I'm not far from the coast, close enough to smell it. The luxury of a boat, is you can go a couple miles out, and shoot without bothering anyone! (Not sure on the legalities...) If you have the gas, you can always pull a monthly or bi-monthly "Bill Hickok" check.

The nail-polish suggestion sounds like it could only help. Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, if not this can be considered the most important part of my post: Keeping the NIPPLES CLEAN is possibly one of most important parts of reliable ignition (just my opinion, could easily be proven wrong by wet powder but anyway). If you are going to trust your life to your percussion gun(s) don't forget to fire caps on the empty gun after you clean it, if anything fire TWO caps on the empty gun(s) after you clean 'em before you load 'em. Nipple-picks are your friend. The only times I've had failures to fire with my percussion guns, were when I was too busy, too lazy or too miserly to do this! Whoever posted the photo of the magnets on the side of the gun with extra caps is brilliant!!! In the event of a misfire, another advantage of a single or double bbl percussion gun, is you don't need to turn a cylinder to recap and retry, you can just pull the hammer back and throw another cap on without risking blowing your hand off (keep pointed in safe direction of course).

I LOVE my single-shot percussion gun, now this thread has me itching for a Howda, and double .44!!!

It's funny how many people go out of their way to chime into a black-powder defense thread about how much better modern options are.... It's like someone asking questions about rimfires and someone else comes along declaring how wonderful .357 magnum is.

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Not really. If you were talking about rimfires, one would assume that you were discussing sport or recreational shooting, and bringing up .357s might be completely irrelevant to the sporting or recreational use under discussion. We are discussing self defense, however, and the greater efficacy of modern firearms to that purpose is in no way whatever irrelevant to that discussion. Quite the opposite, it's central to it.

If you're determined to pick a BP arm for that purpose (as opposed to making use of whatever firearm you happen to have with you when the excrement strikes the rotating blades), there's certainly nothing stopping you. But it's basically not a good idea, and ought to be discouraged, the same way any reasonable person would discourage someone from taking unnecessary risks. From every conceivable standpoint: practicality, versatility, safety, reliability, stopping power, legal defense ramification, etc. a modern gun has got it all over a BP arm. If I had to use an 1860 army to defend myself because that's all I had, or because that's what was with me when I was attacked, I would do it, and I'd feel reasonably well armed. I certainly wouldn't feel sorry for myself. But there's no way I'd select one over a modern gun if I had any choice in the matter at all. Defense of one's life or the lives of one's family is no time to indulge in capricious, romantic, or fanciful notions. The truth of this seems so blindingly self evident to me that I genuinely marvel to see people stepping up to take issue with it.

Some folks aren't into being on ''paper'' as owning guns, and are looking for the most lethal, ''non-regulated'' [meaning not needing to be registered in most states] arm they can legally own.In my own case, that ship has sailed, I'm a collector and Life NRA member, but I can certainly understand why someone who isn't as into guns as I am might want to own just one, for utility/defense. of course the Winchester Defender 12 ga, or other inexpensive shotgun is an excellent choice, but in my state you must register long arms [new sales] and some folks just aren't willing to do that, and ''label'' themselves. I'm not sure if that's where the OP was going with this, but it's a consideration that might be taken....

There is another excellent point on this issue. I'm sick of California gun laws, but I own a gun to protect myself and my family from the evil we know is out there. That's another fantastic reason why I love blackpowder, no registration or any of that garbage. I can order a .44 and have it shipped right to me without any forms or anything to fill out, having paperless guns is great!

I already have cartridge guns, but I feel safer with my New Model Army because it's proven itself to be reliable. I know how to load it, I know how to hit with it, and I can be sure it's reliable. And if that fails, there is always the paperless .22 Magnum sold my NAA that gives better ballistics than the cartridge version.

So BP guns kind of fill a self defense niche. Say you didn't own any kind of firearm and needed one ASAP for whatever reason, perhaps that one guy got out of prison who threatened to kill you several years ago and slipped through the cracks of the prison system. I wouldn't wait ten days and fill out a bunch of paperwork to be able to have a firearm to defend myself. If that is the case then get a good cap and ball, some powder, caps, and ammo, then you are armed and have a formidable weapon. I've seen what a hefty load in a .44 blackpowder can do, it's something I'd hate to be shot with. No doubt a bad guy wouldn't care if it was a cap and ball, it looks like a gun and shoots bullets that can be used to kill bad guys. A .454 ball under a load of 35 grains of Triple Seven would absolutely be stout enough to light your attacker up like the fourth of July.


Levi

Hickock found it necessary to clear and reload his Revolvers every day as the srories go and since he was likely the leading expert on BP Revolver use for all time, I'd follow his lead!
He may have not target shot his pistols frequentlly, but he shot them very often (Likely in a plinking sense when recharging for the day).
I gotta agree, Pratice a LOT.
I shoot my BP revolvers at least once a week and still my groups go out to3 1/2" many times. You need to keep them closer to 2 1/2"!
ZVP

I think daily is a bit much ... when I got out of the Navy, I shot a .36 left loaded [but not capped,in my safe] for about a year, and it went off without a hitch, at a shooting session not long after, and back east you still hear about someone getting shot with great grandpa's Civil War gun from up in the attic, every now and again.

Wax paper could also be used under the patched balls to protect the powder.
Wax paper could work in revolvers too by pressing it to fit the shape of the chamber using the ram.

I took some 14 year old percussion caps (CCI #11) to the range a few weeks ago..... every cap went "pow"! ....they were stored in my humid basement.

Wild Bills guns weren’t sitting in a nite stand waiting for someone to break in, they were with him in all kinds of weather, plus he had no shortage of people that would not mind seeing him 6 feet under so shooting and cleaning everyday was the prudent thing to do, just look at what happen when he left his guard down and didn’t sit with his back to the wall. If he was around now days I don’t you would see him riding into Afghanistan on a horse with his 1851s blazing?

You have your reasons for choosing a BP handgun, I would do what it takes to legally obtain a modern firearm myself. That said, my Remington .44 would stop some sleeqy ass night "zombie" as well as one of my center fire pistols. I would go with the moisture pack idea and practice a lot. This is much like the old "WD-40 contamination" idea. Swap your ammo, in this case shoot it, monthly if not sooner.

I have a friend who can't own modern firearms. He has BP firearms instead. Receintly had a breakin by illegals and it was nip and tuck for awhile. When the police responded they took his side. Their were "blood trails" but no bad guys. It's been 6 months of peace for him now so looks like BP worked for him.

I keep seeing this "can't own modern guns, so they have a BP gun" over and over. When asked within the last month an ATF ageant inspecting a friend books said that convicted felons could own traditional BP arms.....but that is was still a felony for them to posses ammunition or components to include BP, caps, and bullets.

That is of course only that federal agent's view of how only the feds feel about it. Various states may have more restrictive laws.

I would hate to see someone mess up based on seeing information on here that is less than Jake.

-kBob

I used to shoot my revolver dry every morning, clean it, and reload it. But the sound of the five shots carried too far even with the shop ventilation on, so I had to keep it on the down low for a while. I do go out to the woods and shoot my pistol about once a month and then clean and reload. I hope someday I'll be able to buy a piece of property big enough to shoot my New Model Army every morning. That would be sweet!

Levi

What a lot of folks lose sight of is you can leave a hammer on the seat of your car all the time with no problem. Smash someone's head in with it and you are charged with murder and the hammer is declared a deadly weapon. It is not the tool, it is the action. I neither know why nor do I care why the OP wants to use black powder. It is a fine choice and I hope he has recieved the information he was seeking.

In your post #6 you stated: "If I can't hit a human at under 15 feet, in the heat of battle, something is really wrong. Did it before, got the bloody uniform to prove it. It's not a question of my skills". Having been employed as a LEO for my state, I've seen trooper after trooper miss targets at 7 yards, so don't tell me something is wrong if you miss at 15 yards. You might be good, but I doubt that you are that good. In the heat of battle/gunfights trained FBI agents get killed because of misses at short range. Absolutely nothing takes the place of practice, and I mean the right kind of practice where you are moving or behind cover. I love BP guns and have many, but using one of them for protection is fool hardly. Our ancestors used and depended on BP guns to protect them, but they didn't have anything that was better, they had no choice.

"I love BP guns and have many, but using one of them for protection is fool hardly."

This weekend when I went out to shoot I had several misfires with my .357, I haven't had a misfire in a long time with my 1858 Remington. I also shoot it more than any other pistol I own, know what load it likes, know what loads put a hurt on whatever is downrange, know how to make it go boom when I want it to, and keep it by my bedside as my home defense gun with a smaller caliber revolver as a backup. Best pistol I own, period. Best $175 I ever spent, period.

When I'm out fishing or checking the trot line I'm always armed with a pistol, and that pistol just so happens to be a small percussion revolver that I practice with all the time.

Don't underestimate blackpowder guns as defensive weapons. Let's pretend you didn't have any kind of firearm, cartridge or otherwise. If you knew someone legitimately wanted to hurt you but didn't have solid proof he wanted to do so you'd probably want a gun. In California you can't just go into a gun store, buy a gun, and walk out of the place with your new firearm no matter how dire the situation. You have to wait ten whole days before you can go pick it up and if it's a handgun then you need to pass a safety course. If you needed a gun, a New Model Army or a ROA would make an excellent choice. I bet 40 grains of Triple Seven and a ball would be a great defensive load in the Remington, even if you miss your bad guy will probably be cleaning out his shorts from the noise. Or perhaps even a BP gun with a conversion cylinder, that would work as well.

If it goes boom everytime and has .45 Colt ballistics you can count me in as far as defense goes.

Levi

Good points Busyhands! with that load in a .44, even a near miss will suck the oxygen right out of an your opponent's lungs, and make him pass out!

Anybody shot the 40 grain charge of 777 with a round ball over a chronograph? As big a fan of the round ball as I am, it is nowhere near what the 45 long Colt is, ballistically.

With the 45 long Colt, black powder and a 260 grain lead bullet I get about 950 fps from a 5 1/2" revolver.