sportsmans warehouse and colt

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browncoatdawn

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I dont know, but I was just about ready to open my mouth at sportmans.
The gun salesman was telling a couple of new customers that Colt AR 15 rifles are the best of the best and none other come close. He literally told the guys that Bushmaster and DPMS and the other brands offered no military spec rifles, and that all but Colt were made with 100-200 rounds a year as a max.
Now I have a DPMS and before I did any mods, I put 400-500 at a time through mine. All I did was took it apart, cleaned, lubed and double checked that the parts were properly staked before I took it out the first time. I think that might be the major mistake most people make.
Since I have had my rifle, I have upgraded it to an M16 NP3 bolt group and a black ejector spring, and since I am not shooting off the bench I left the stock trigger in it.
I have had no problems, and the original bolt group is in fine shape. I did upgrade to a heavier duty charging handle too now that I think of it.

I know a couple of guardsmen that tell me that they carry Bushmaster rifles when deployed. I imagine the brand doesn't matter so much as long as the thing is true Mil Spec.
 
It ain't "true mil-spec" unless it has the paper trail with inspector's marks and is engraved US Government Property.


Blind obedience to "mil-specs" is why us taxpayers get stuck paying for $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers.
 
MILSPEC is way over dramatized. A milspec buffer tube for a collapsible stock is thinner than a commercial spec tube. I guess you could argue that the milspec buffer tube can fit both milspec and with a good bit of slop commercial spec stocks. That aside I still don't think the beefier commercial spec buffer tube is inferior to the Milspec version.
 
mil spec

well, they did say the only difference was that the civilian model wont rock and roll. For my thinking, my rifle is near mil spec. It has the internal and external measurements mil spec, and now the bolt is also. I really think I like my 20 inch barrel better though lol. The thing that surprises most people are that lots of buffer tubes aren't mil spec. I'm not really sure why that matters to so many people care so much.
 
JHansenAK47 said:
MILSPEC is way over dramatized. A milspec buffer tube for a collapsible stock is thinner than a commercial spec tube. I guess you could argue that the milspec buffer tube can fit both milspec and with a good bit of slop commercial spec stocks. That aside I still don't think the beefier commercial spec buffer tube is inferior to the Milspec version.
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Except for the difference in material (mil-spec is 7075-T6 vs 6061-T6) and the inferior method of threading that doesn't leave a full profile thread in the commercial tube. For a range plinker, you're right, there is no difference. For a rifle that is going to get beat on, there's a difference. There are also several stocks that are only available in a mil-spec diameter. I've yet to see a quality stock that was only available in commercial diameter.
 
Except for the difference in material (mil-spec is 7075-T6 vs 6061-T6) and the inferior method of threading that doesn't leave a full profile thread in the commercial tube. For a range plinker, you're right, there is no difference. For a rifle that is going to get beat on, there's a difference. There are also several stocks that are only available in a mil-spec diameter. I've yet to see a quality stock that was only available in commercial diameter.
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Really??? Do you care to back that statement up with facts? I'd like to see the first example in history of a commercial tube being proven as inferior to a milspec one, even considering the type of metal.

A lot of non-spec rifles have been through the wringer, and they seem to do just fine. Lots of them have passed torture tests, which include drop tests and intentional attempts to damage the components. Some agencies have even "frisbee" tested the submitted guns and tossed them against a wall. I have not heard of broken commercial tubes. I have never seen the threads give out either.

Please try to post factual information in your response, not a theoretical superiority, merely due to the specs of the piece being slightly better. If you can reveal an example, please let us know how it was concluded that the specs for the part were to blame, and whether it might be a single freak example, or something widespread.

Think of this: a titanium spoon is no better than a decent stainless one for eating soup, nor will the inferior stainless wear out within a lifetime of use. Only if subjected to extreme force -- that of which no one will ever experience when using it for its intended purpose -- will it show it's inferiority. It's all about the application. I can't think of one single example of when a buffer tube will benefit from being milspec. Same goes for 4140 vs. 4150 or CMV barrel steel in an AR15. Furthermore, when these questions are debated on dedicated AR15 forums, the consensus is the same; no differences in the field for the given application.
 
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Your DPMS doesn't have a chrome lined barrel and it is 1/9 twist instead of 1/7. Also the barrel is not high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected. All these things are required on military rifles, and Colts have all of those features. Bushmasters have chrome lined barrels, but they only offer 1/9 and don't HPT or MPI.

The guy at the store was exaggerating, but it is true that Bushmaster and DPMS don't make any mil spec rifles. However, I would definitely dispute the claim that "no others come close" to Colt. Maybe that is true of the models that Sportsman's Warehouse carries, but there are mfgs like BCM, DD, Noveske, and PSA that make all mil spec rifles, and offer them in more configurations and with different options than Colt. BCM and PSA beat their prices, too.
 
Wally and RC are absolutly right.... Some parts in an AR are mil-spec from certain manufactures. But like they said, it isn't really a mil-spec rifle. The FCG is different, the lower receiver has been milled more to accept the afore mentioned FCG. Trust me the $400 toilet seats and the $30 rolls of John Wayne toilet paper suck... LOL
 
Blind obedience to "mil-specs" is why us taxpayers get stuck paying for $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers.
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False, the DOD has been trending heavily towards COTS procurement (for better or worse) for years, we're only supposed to use Military specific peformance specs for items where the warfighters really do have a set of requirements that differ from what is being offered commercially. A lot of the procurement waste casually attributed to DOD procurement is in reality caused by a small subset of contractors determined to squeeze every percieved hint of vagueness in a contract for all the cash they possibly can. Most contractors are more upstanding than this, plenty are not.

If you want other factors to blame for DOD waste, take a look at the overly cumbersome congressional monetary control system and a contract protest system set up to put the government at a serious disadvantage.

*End Rant*

As for the OP, it sounds like you ran into the classic gunstore blowhard... I usually try to ignore these types, the more you try to logically explain the faults in their argument, the louder they argue...
 
barrels

my barrel and chamber are chrome lines actually, but the twist is 1/9. I have fired both and tend to like the 1/9 barrel better anyway. I have a lot of 62-69 grain ammo and it performs better out of my barrel.
I would have to wonder who colt contracts out to when they cant keep up with demand.
 
I know a couple of guardsmen that tell me that they carry Bushmaster rifles when deployed.
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I'd be curious to hear a little more backup on this. AFAIK, all M4/M4A1s in the current inventory are Colts, and all M16A2/M16A4s are either Colt or FN.

I've been wrong before, though. Obviously, there are some more esoteric examples out there (H&K M416, etc.) but I wouldn't expect many of these in National Guard hands.
 
357SIG said:
Really??? Do you care to back that statement up with facts? I'd like to see the first example in history of a commercial tube being proven as inferior to a milspec one, even considering the type of metal.
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I've seen several commercial tubes that have collapsed under lateral stress. I've seen pictures of several that have had the threads strip when the castle nut was tightened because the threads were not full profile. Like I said, the casual user will never notice a difference, but if there were truly no difference, then everyone would have gone to the commercial tube long aago since it is cheaper to produce from a material and machining standpoint.

Furthermore, when these questions are debated on dedicated AR15 forums, the consensus is the same; no differences in the field for the given application.
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You must frequent very different AR forums than I do, since I'm usually the only one holding the position that the "chart" and mil-spec on the whole mean squat for a normal shooter. Certain items will not mean anything outside military use (particularly full auto fire), but for other things there is a difference that will be appreciable.
 
What DPMS do you have that is chrome lined? The only CL barrels they sell are on their NFA 14.5" uppers, which they don't make very many of at all.

Personally I like the 1/7 because while it shoots the 55 and 62 grain surplus just fine, it also lets me use heavier rounds for long range, like the 75 and 77 grain stuff. Also it handles the heavy Hornady TAP HD ammo well. There just isn't a downside to it, as far as I can see. I shoot mostly surplus too, but I got the 1/7 because I want the option. I figure when I get into handloading for this caliber, I will use a lot more of the heavy stuff.
 
"Mil Spec" does not inherently means superior. Heck, the mere existance of the "Manual Bolt Closure Device" proves this. It means that it is built and documented as being built to the specification. It does not mean the specification is better.

Aside for the 'fun switch', the original "Mil Spec" M16 is inferior in almost every way. And let's not even talk about 'Mil Spec' ammunition.
 
from what ive been told

from what ive been told, in 2009 DPMS began chrome lining most of their barrels. thats according the their rep on the phone. the chambers have always been chrome lined afaik. the longer, predador barrels are not chrome lined, as this typically effects accuracy, as ive read in many sources. so i know that barrel of mine is not chromed.
i am looking for a 300 blackout barrel for my uppers that i would be happy with. iowa is not an nfa state and i dont think there is much any way around it.
 
In general he was truthful. Though as henschman said he was exaggerating, Colt is about as good as it gets if you want an AR that can take hard use. BCM and a few others equal Colt in this area but you may not need that type of AR yourself.
 
"Mil Spec" does not inherently means superior. Heck, the mere existance of the "Manual Bolt Closure Device" proves this. It means that it is built and documented as being built to the specification. It does not mean the specification is better.

Aside for the 'fun switch', the original "Mil Spec" M16 is inferior in almost every way. And let's not even talk about 'Mil Spec' ammunition.
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You seem to be implying that mil spec is meaningless. This is not true. It is a minimum set of quality assurance. Certainly it is possible to improve on the mil specs, but unfortunately most non mil spec manufacturers make inferior, rather than superior products. The ones who make superior products are well known for it and their price tags reflect it.
 
I have a Colt. it goes bang every time
My buddy has a Bushmaster. it to goes bang every time
His buddy has a DPMS It goes bang every time.
My buddies buddies buddies wife has a Rock River. Guess what it does?
 
husker said:
I have a Colt. it goes bang every time
My buddy has a Bushmaster. it to goes bang every time
His buddy has a DPMS It goes bang every time.
My buddies buddies buddies wife has a Rock River. Guess what it does?
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But bang 'em up real bad and see which one still goes bang! That's likely what the Sportsmans Warehouse gun salesman implied.
 
henschman said:
You seem to be implying that mil spec is meaningless. This is not true. It is a minimum set of quality assurance. Certainly it is possible to improve on the mil specs, but unfortunately most non mil spec manufacturers make inferior, rather than superior products. The ones who make superior products are well known for it and their price tags reflect it.
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I have not implied it in any way shape or form.

But thanks for ignoring what I actually posted. 37+two+thumbs+up.gif
 
bang 'em up

In all actuality, the salesman said simply that all other brands were only good for 100 to 200 rounds in a years time. that wasn't thousand rounds. and there was no mention of abuse of said weapon. besides, if I were to buy a weapon that saw lots of abuse, I believe I would go for H&K or FN.
 
Sounds like another "Colt Fan Boys versus the World" thread.

I have Armalite AR15's, Rock River, Bushmaster. They all go bang ,shoot exceptionally well and I am happy with them.

Colt did not make a stock box NM AR15. When I talked to a Colt Executive behind a Colt table of rifles they had on Commercial Row I found him to be an exceptionally arrogant person. I asked why Colt did not put a 1:8 twist barrel on their rifles, because a 1:9 is not competitive at 600 yards, and I got a lecture about how Colt was selling a quarter million AR’s per year, Colt knew what they were doing and I, obviously, was a total idiot.

I have always wondered who was the bigger idiot, me looking for a rifle to shoot across the course, or a Company who wags products to a competitive event that no one could possibly win with.

The reason I am not buying Colt is because they produce an expensive product that does not meet my needs.

I have shot with gentleman who have used their Rock Rivers, Bushmasters, and Armalites enough to go through several barrels. If these brands were horrible I would have heard complaints.

If people want to pay extra for the Pony they are fine to do so. With only 160 employees at Colt, most of their stuff is sub contracted out anyway, from the same subcontractors who sell the same parts to all the other AR vendors.
 
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