Saw an attempted straw purchase at gun show

Details?

Sorry, Ive seen this type of thing mentioned before. Sorry, what is a straw purchase?? I think I read about it once but Im a bit confused.

A straw purchase is when a person who cannot legally buy a gun gets someone who can legally buy a gun to buy it for them.

Doing so in public is silly considering everything could be setup in private. But, idiots will be idiots.

Here is an article explaining straw purchases.

http://smartgunlaws.org/straw-purchases-policy-summary/


I too would like to know more information about the OP's experience.

SilverCat said:

Sorry, what is a straw purchase??

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A straw purchase is when person X gives money to person Y in order for person Y to buy a gun from a licensed dealer in order to provide that gun to person X.

Without any particular information provided by Armymutt to explain exactly why he/she thinks they saw a straw purchase at a gun show, we have no idea what was occurring. It could have been a husband/father buying a gift for their wife/child.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 165:

An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

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SilverCat said:

Sorry, Ive seen this type of thing mentioned before. Sorry, what is a straw purchase?? I think I read about it once but Im a bit confused.

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A person who is disqualified from buying a firearm, such as an ex felon, convinces friend/family member/other dupe into buying the gun for him. Exfelon gives said dupe the $$ and the dupe fills out the federal forms claiming HE is the actual purchaser of the gun so when the NICS check is run, it goes through. Then the dupe takes the gun and gives it to the disqualified person.
It's illegal and ought to result in the conviction of the participants, especially the disqualified person.

NavyLCDR said:

Without any particular information provided by Armymutt to explain exactly why he/she thinks they saw a straw purchase at a gun show, we have no idea what was occurring.

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^^^ I agree.

Thanks. It seems like it would be dumb to do it very obviously.

I've been at a gun store before while some guy picks out a gun he likes. He then hands it back to the clerk and says, "My wife will be in later. She'll ask for this gun, okay?" Then walks out. The clerk told all the others to watch out for a lady asking for that gun. They told me that it's just as likely to be a setup by local police, or ATF, to see if they will go through with the deal.

Straw purchase has nothing to do with the disqualified status of the person receiving the firearm. It has to do with who is the actual purchaser of the gun. If I go to the gun store and buy, with my money, a gun for my son as a gift, that's not a straw purchase. If I do the same thing, but with his money, that's a straw purchase. If I hand him the money and he goes and buys it for himself, that's not a straw purchase.

I don't agree at all with the way the it's defined currently by the ATF (not the law itself, but by administrative rule), but that's how it is. The ATF is very clear about it. There is a case before the SCOTUS that hopefully will change things for the better. I don't see any problem with me buying a gun for someone that I know isn't a prohibited person. In the case before the Court, the plaintiff is an ex-cop who is very much not a prohibited person, and the person for which he bought the gun wasn't a prohibited person either _and_ had the final transfer was done through another FFL with the required background check also.

I'm hoping the ATF/DOJ gets their proverbial heads handed to them by the court. But it will probably be a narrow ruling that only affects ex-cops buying stuff for non-prohibited relatives.

Matt

potmetal said:

I've been at a gun store before while some guy picks out a gun he likes. He then hands it back to the clerk and says, "My wife will be in later. She'll ask for this gun, okay?" Then walks out.

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I wonder how many times that happens every year when a wife wants to get a gun for her husband and does not know which one? I know my son has done it several times. Ain't cause he's prohibited from owning guns, it's just that his wife wants to give him one for a gift and lets him pick it out first. No criminal intent. Would it be something the BATF would prosecute? I dunno, since the gun will reside in her house and she paid for it with her money.

morcey2 said:

Straw purchase has nothing to do with the disqualified status of the person receiving the firearm. It has to do with who is the actual purchaser of the gun.

Matt

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Absolutely correct. There are two seperate and distinct crimes that are very often confused.

1. Straw purchasing.
2. Providing a firearm to a prohibited person.

There does not have to be a straw purchase in order to provide a firearm to a prohibited person, nor does there have to be a prohibted person involved for a straw purchase to occur.

I wonder how many times that happens every year when a wife wants to get a gun for her husband and does not know which one? I know my son has done it several times. Ain't cause he's prohibited from owning guns, it's just that his wife wants to give him one for a gift and lets him pick it out first. No criminal intent. Would it be something the BATF would prosecute? I dunno, since the gun will reside in her house and she paid for it with her money.

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Buying a gun as a gift is legal, and the definition of a gift seems to center around the finances.

If I buy a gun with my money to give to you, then it's a gift. If I buy a gun with my money to give you to and you reimburse me for the cost, then it's NOT a gift. If I buy a gun with your money, then it's NOT a gift.

I could see this is as a very gray/wishywashy area.

My local gun guy tries to be 100% on the up and up when it comes to the law with that stuff. My dad bought me an Ar as a birthday gift a few years back. He paid the money, but I had to go in and fill out the paper work and get my info called in.

All my dad did was fund the rifle...one of my favorite gifts I've ever received by the way

I really wish people like this were prosecuted.

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Really? Sometimes it is not as criminal as you might like it to be...

Friend of mine went with his son to LGS and his son decided to buy a Kimber. Son attempts to buy it, but he hit his credit card limit which declined the purchase. They stand there and wonder what to do now.

The dad whips out his own credit card and says, "Here, I'll just buy it then. You can pay me back later.", which has them tossed out of the store.

He didn't know what in the world the big deal was and the store did not do an adequate job of explaining why they wouldn't proceed with the transaction.

He asked me the following Monday what I thought would have caused all the trouble and I explained what a straw purchase was and why the store felt they had to reject them two.

Nope. In my opinion, him and his son should not be prosecuted for what they tried to do.

YMMV

rbernie said:

Buying a gun as a gift is legal, and the definition of a gift seems to center around the finances.

If I buy a gun with my money to give to you, then it's a gift. If I buy a gun with my money to give you to and you reimburse me for the cost, then it's NOT a gift. If I buy a gun with your money, then it's NOT a gift.

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But does the same apply if a husband gives his wife the money, even tho it's a gift for him and even tho they live in a state where there is community property?

And what if my dad buys a gun, but then gets home and has a change of heart (no returns on guns purchases anywhere I know of) and decides to sell it to me. Being he's my dad I pay him exactly what he paid for it.

It's been a while since I looked at this, and I'm no lawyer, but my understanding about straw purchases is intent. If you buy a gun to give as a gift, you are the buyer. Once you own the gun, it is your property, and (barring any unconstitutional laws), you have the right to sell or trade it to any non-prohibited person. The question is, did you buy it intending to resell it, or did you buy it and later decide to sell it?

This is, IMO, one of the problems with firearm laws. It's an easy issue to get around if you don't do something stupid (like say "can you pass the background check for me so I can buy this" in front of the sales clerk), but a lot of the gray area could get someone in trouble for legal business.

If the husband checks out a gun and recommends it for his wife who comes in and fills out the paper, has a check and pays for it. It is not a straw purchase.

Skribs said:

It's been a while since I looked at this, and I'm no lawyer, but my understanding about straw purchases is intent. If you buy a gun to give as a gift, you are the buyer. Once you own the gun, it is your property, and (barring any unconstitutional laws), you have the right to sell or trade it to any non-prohibited person. The question is, did you buy it intending to resell it, or did you buy it and later decide to sell it?

This is, IMO, one of the problems with firearm laws. It's an easy issue to get around if you don't do something stupid (like say "can you pass the background check for me so I can buy this" in front of the sales clerk), but a lot of the gray area could get someone in trouble for legal business.

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Proving intent of the people involved is the hard, if not impossible, part unless they just come right out and say it.

The law should simply be that you can't sell or give a gun to a prohibited person. The law shouldn't waste it's time on how transactions between 'non-prohibited' people are done because the intent of the law is to keep guns out of the hands of the prohibited people.

I'll state some major points regarding this:

A straw purchase was never meant to include filling out a form for a nonprohibited person, only when doing so for a prohibited person. The ATF say it's for anyone because they want as close to a registration as they can get. What will be the law of the land going forward is being decided in the Supreme Court now.

Where private sales are legal a person can fill out the form and 10 minutes later decide to sell it to their buddy perfectly legally. It all comes down to intent which is so grey the ATF should write the sequel to 50 shades of grey. Let's not start pointing fingers at each other and helping them harass and prosecute innocent Americans.

A very complete explanation of straw purchases can be found in Legal.

Maybe when Armymutt is able to get back on he will explain to us what happened.
I'm curious to know the details.

Arkansas Paul said:

Maybe when Armymutt is able to get back on he will explain to us what happened.
I'm curious to know the details.

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I'm curious too