Using slide release over manually retracting the slide.

Glove up!....

Don't forget many of these modern semi auto pistols are T&Eed by nations in western Europe or by armed professionals who work outdoors often(or need protective gear) so gloves need to be a factor.
I bought a pair of Hatch Operator shorty style gloves. I wore them & had a hard time using the pistol levers/buttons.
I returned the Hatch gloves to www.policeHQ.com .

Rusty

460Kodiak said:

...I just view it the same as dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

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One good reason to use the slide stop/release to free the slide when chambering a round: it's faster. There may be times when faster is better.

Another good reason: properly done, using the slide release allows you to keep the gun on target, while slingshotting almost always forces the shooter to move the weapon OFF target so that he or she can get a good grasp of the rear of the slide; that takes more time as does the process of reacquiring the target. As noted above, sometimes FASTER is needed.

If you're really concerned about undue or unnecessary wear to the slide or release from using the slide stop, the hand-over method of releasing the slide will also let you keep the gun on target, and it's only a bit slower than using the slide stop/release lever. It can be much faster than slingshotting.

Concern about undue wear from using the slide stop to release the slide seems a bit like the ongoing concern about frame damage* from using hotter loads or the wrong recoil spring or NOT using a recoil buffer... arguably misplaced or mistaken.

*Things can go wrong as a result of using hot loads or the wrong (or tired) recoil springs, but those things are seldom damage... and for most guns (some H&Ks designed to use them a notable exception) recoil buffers seem to cause as many problems as they solve.

One good reason to use the slide stop/release to free the slide when chambering a round: it's faster. There may be times when faster is better.

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Yeah Walt, that's why I said

I just view it the same as dropping the slide on an empty chamber. There really isn't a need to do it, if you are just target shooting that is. Now if you are practicing defensive shooting, or competing where speed is essential, I totally get it. It is faster than sling shotting for sure.

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Concern about undue wear from using the slide stop to release the slide seems a bit like the ongoing concern about frame damage* from using hotter loads or the wrong recoil spring or NOT using a recoil buffer... arguably misplaced or mistaken.

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I think you're right about this. ^^^^^ I tend to baby my guns. I shoot the heck out of them, but handle them gingerly, except my carry gun. Limited budget results in worrying too much.

Don't forget many of these modern semi auto pistols are T&Eed by nations in western Europe or by armed professionals who work outdoors often(or need protective gear) so gloves need to be a factor.
I bought a pair of Hatch Operator shorty style gloves. I wore them & had a hard time using the pistol levers/buttons.
I returned the Hatch gloves to

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^^^^ Don't understand what that has to do with the topic.

At the end of the day, it's personal preference. Some people do one, some the other.

I agree with Tuner because over the years he has given information that I could take to the bank. I use the slide stop by tripping it to load the first round out of a fresh magazine.

460Kodiak said:

Yeah Walt, that's why I said:

the same as dropping the slide on an empty chamber. There really isn't a need to do it, if you are just target shooting that is. Now if you are practicing defensive shooting, or competing where speed is essential, I totally get it. It is faster than sling shotting for sure.

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I quoted your original comments as a lead-in to my own comments, some of which (obviously, as you noted) agreed with your points. For some reason, I skipped over a point of disagreement. Sorry that I confused things unnecessarily. I seemed to be doing "free association keying" and didn't follow my original line of thought.

We do disagree on one point, and that has to do with dropping the slide on an empty chamber. Unless you know that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is safe,there may be reasons NOT TO DO IT.

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is apparently something to be avoided with a 1911. As I understand it, the extra force of the slide slamming home, without the reduction of force caused by the cartridge being stripped from the mag and fed into a chamber, could lead to extractor damage and possibly hammer/sear interface damage. If you manually feed a round into the chamber and drop the slide, the extractor is forced to bend where it's not intended to bend. These are subtle points and I've seen disagreement on the hammer/sear damage question here on this forum -- but not generally from the folks who are serious 1911 users.

While I haven't seen a true copy of the test requirements, I have been told (by people who seem to know) that when the U.S. did the original handgun competition that resulted in the US picking the M9 for much of the US military, one of the requirements was that the gun being able to drop the slide on a chambered round. It can and will, and there's no warning in the manual NOT to do it. I think it's safe to assume that if the M9 can do that (i.e., drop the slide when there's a round in the chamber, without damage) it can also withstand the battering of a slide hitting an empty chamber without damage, as well. That may be true of the other guns in the competition, too.

On forums like this, the subject seems to be mostly discussed by 1911 enthusiasts, and hardly anyone else. In the case of the Beretta, I would argue that there's no reason NOT to do it. But, for other guns, it's less clear.

.

Like said, each to their own choices.

With lightly sprung CZ competition pistols the full rack feeds more positively than releasing the slide. It will work fine with a half-way clean pistol, but after 400-500 rds with a dirty powder, I've found racking the slide provides totally reliable feed.

In competition, it's required to clear the gun and release the slide on an empty chamber and then drop the hammer on all pistol calibers.

With light loads and 20K rds on the pistol, the *Slide Stop broke. Again with just over another 20K rds the slide stop broke. *(CZ designed and made the pistol so they can call it's components anything they choose.) It will release the slide.

With practice, racking the slide can be done extremely fast. It definitely can be done faster than releasing the slide when your strong hand thumb can't reach the slide stop/release without breaking your grip.

True....

True!
When you are around firearms or carry guns for 10/20/30 years, habits are hard to break.

You develop fine motor skills & "muscle memory", .
In a real critical incident you'll slow way down. You'll rack/tap/buckle/shake.
Learning new skills may help but you'll need to train train train....

With practice, racking the slide can be done extremely fast. It definitely can be done faster than releasing the slide when your strong hand thumb can't reach the slide stop/release without breaking your grip.

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And it can be done even faster if you reach up with your left thumb as you slap in a fresh magazine...as you roll the gun back into firing position.

If speed reloads from a locked slide are even part of the picture...and they shouldn't be.

A locked slide/empty gun is a stoppage, no matter how you cut it. That it's an engineered stoppage doesn't change that. It's still a stoppage...and it may take you several seconds to even realize that the gun has stopped if your target is shooting at you. Funny thing, stress.

Better for you to decide when to reload than to have the gun decide for you...assuming that you even need a reload in a hurry. Like the man said: "If you can't solve your immediate problem with five or six rounds, you probably can't solve it with 20."

Eh, oh my Springfield Armory, 1911 Range Officer. I use the slide stop/release when reloading. I use the over the hand method and ride the slide forward when it's on an empty chamber. Not because I am afraid of breaking anything. Just because I don't abuse my very accurate reliable as all hell pistol.

If speed reloads from a locked slide are even part of the picture...and they shouldn't be.
A locked slide/empty gun is a stoppage, no matter how you cut it. That it's an engineered stoppage doesn't change that. It's still a stoppage...and it may take you several seconds to even realize that the gun has stopped if your target is shooting at you. Funny thing, stress.

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I appreciate your lesson with the SD scenario. Like said, under untested stress, no telling what may happen. Running dry IS a bad thing.

I'm talking the talk here and have plenty yet to learn, and always ready to consider advice.

When I attended Ted Bonnet's class for stopages, I also appreciated his constructive advice for getting the gun back ready to shoot.

For gun-games my pistols will drop the slide with a fast insert while moving. It's reliable enough to use the method even if "it" happens, but nothing mechanical is forever reliable.

Good drill....

I recall seeing a great training drill in a printed gun magazine about a year ago.
The cadre lined up the PMCs/security contractors & each student fired one round from each weapon/magazine they carried. Just one round.
If you carry multiple guns or work in a armed position, it's not a bad training drill. It will condition you to be aware of where you place your extra mags or BUGs/2nd guns & how fast reloading/firing them will take.

RS

It Never slams shut empty without being slowed down when shooting, because the slide is locked open when the mag runs dry.

Dropping the slide on an empty gun probably produces 50-100% more metal to metal impact then shooting does.

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True enough, in theory. But in the real world you will encounter defective mags that won't lock back, shooting with gloves or a poor grip that interferes and prevent the lever from working, etc. so IMHO it ain't much of a gun if doing so breaks it as it will happen if you shoot enough.

OTOH doing it repeatedly like some yahoo showing off, especially without a mag inserted, is not wise as it will eventually cause unnecessary wear and tear.

On the other hand, that big, giant lever on the HK45 is specifically designed for you to use it to release the slide. That lever could probably be used constantly for the rest of your life and never show any signs of wear.

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Same with a Beretta 92/M9. The slide...stop/catch/release...lever on the Beretta practically screams "PUSH ME!". Unlike a 1911, you don't have to shift your shooting grip to easily hit it with your thumb. And unlike a Glock, it sticks out prominently so you can easily find it and swipe it down, even with gloves on. People talk about losing fine motor skills during a violent stressful encounter, but with the Beretta, if your right thumb is wiggling around anywhere near the slide, it WILL trip that lever and send the slide home, with authority.

Having said all that, I believe in redundancy while training, and since I shoot a lot of different types of semi-autos, including Glocks, 1911s and Sigs (whose decocker lever is where the dang slide catch should be ) I have standardized my reloading method to the hand-over-slide powerstroke. To make this method Beretta-friendly, I installed a Wilson Combat low-profile single-sided decocker lever on it, and I have yet to inadvertently put the gun on safe during shooting and malfunction drills, with or without gloves on. I can't say the same for before I installed this part.

The slide catch on a Beretta is definitely faster than a slide manipulation. But unless a Beretta is the only type of semi-auto you ever intend to have in your hands during stress, it's probably a good idea to get used to grabbing the slide on a reload.

For the true fastest reload on a Beretta 92, you can also use the "45 degree" method. This involves slamming a magazine up into the gun with brute force using the heel of your palm, at a roughly 45 degree angle to the bore axis, which automatically trips the slide catch. I wouldn't depend on it as a method to use every time, but it is a fun trick that will impress your friends at the range. A word of warning though, I once was practicing this at home using a magazine loaded with snap caps. On one attempt, I slammed the mag into the gun so hard that the magazine base plates flew off, and the mag spring and snap caps spilled all over the kitchen floor.

Unlike a 1911, you don't have to shift your shooting grip to easily hit it with your thumb.

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See the part about using your left thumb after you slap the magazine in as you roll the gun back into position. Quick and simple...and less fumble prone than overhand, slingshot, or strong-side thumb/shifted grip.

I appreciate your lesson with the SD scenario. Like said, under untested stress, no telling what may happen. Running dry IS a bad thing.

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Thanks. I try to bring that into these discussions whenever it comes up. Stoppages...no matter their origins...rob you of time.
Time to realize that the gun has stopped. Time to figure out why.
Time to reach for the fresh magazine and lock it in. Time to release the slide...regardless of your method...and time to bring the gun back to firing position. All the while, your antagonist is probably firing at you...and you have to get lucky every time he pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once.

http://youtu.be/zArt0t6Lzgk

I saw this Brassfetcher video the other day. Really made me think about how a cartridge can significantly slow a pistol slide. There's another version somewhere in positive temps which shows roughly the same level of braking on slide velocity, but I can't find it atm.

Anyway, carry on.

1911Tuner said:

Time to realize that the gun has stopped. Time to figure out why.
Time to reach for the fresh magazine and lock it in. Time to release the slide...regardless of your method...and time to bring the gun back to firing position. All the while, your antagonist is probably firing at you...and you have to get lucky every time he pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once.

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All of this is true. But if you're exchanging shots with someone, trying to keep track of where THEY ARE, and where you ought to be, worrrying about someone who may be with you, etc., it may be more difficult to keep track of just how many shots have been fired or are left. I hope I have that sort of presence of mind if I ever find myself in a real-world confrontation.

In competition that sort of counting is a bit easier -- and it is done. But if you miscount, you're probably going to lose a round or two. (In self-defense situations that may NOT be a problem -- as they typically don't even include a mag exchange.)

See the part about using your left thumb after you slap the magazine in as you roll the gun back into position. Quick and simple...and less fumble prone than overhand, slingshot, or strong-side thumb/shifted grip.

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This is great if you shoot only 1911's and similar guns. This is something I will not bother to learn, because I do not shoot only 1911's. By the time you have the gun back in position is not a good time to figure out that there's no slide release where you are expecting it.

If I had a Beretta or an HK, I would probably use the slide release. I say this because I learned pretty quick to use the slide release on my friend's Bersa Thunder. The lever was huge and it was positioned right under my right thumb.

That said, I prefer for the lever to not even be reachable in a shooting grip. (This is why my G21 is perfect, out of the box, but I have done a little work on my other Glocks.) I've had the occasional user-induced malfunction. The most usual one is accidentally pressing the lever down on the last shot so the slide doesn't lock back. The other even worse malfunction is accidentally locking the slide back while shooting! I've only ever had this happen with a G27 shooting nuclear reloads. But I suppose it could happen with other guns given a bad grip or slippery hands. I watched a youtube video where the guy was reviewing a new to him G23 with an extended slide release. He had a bunch of malfunctions with the gun on camera. And he mentioned that his XD never did that. It was because he was inadvertently hitting the slide lock and locking the slide back!

Shooting IDPA as I do, I have necessarily formed the habit of shooting a 1911oid to slide lock, reloading, and wiping the slide stop lever down to disengage and chamber a round with my left thumb as it moves back toward a firing grip.

Glockshooters in the same sport either
1. Rack the slide
or
2. Get their gun set up to bump load as they seat the magazine. Most of the time it doesn't require any modification, it just does it.

So does my Plastic M&P.
My SA based MixMaster 9mm did until I replaced the soft Springfield recoil spring with a 13 lb like I use on my Colt.

All of this is true. But if you're exchanging shots with someone, trying to keep track of where THEY ARE, and where you ought to be, worrrying about someone who may be with you, etc., it may be more difficult to keep track of just how many shots have been fired or are left.

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Counting rounds can be done if you keep your wits about you.

Back when Cooper ran Gunsite, and the students entered the Funhouse...any shooter whose slide locked empty was judged "killed" regardless of how he'd done up to that point. Cooper was trying to drive a point home. That being that a gun shot dry is a stoppage...and stoppages aren't conducive to long life.

RustyShackelford said:

I used to be in the "I use the slide release." camp but after buying and shooting a Glock 21 .45acp gen 04, I got into the habit of racking the slide/loading by hand.
It's fast & easy. If wounded or injured you can use the semi auto pistol's controls too(like shooting one-handed). It's not a waste or un-needed to learn both ways.

I'd add that the "slide release" on the Glock 21 gen 04 is less than ideal.
Like the take-down lever(which is too small & complex IMO), the factory Glock part could be re-designed.
I plan to replace the Glock 21's take-down part, the slide-release & the magazine release.
I'm going to buy a Ti take-down lever from Glockworx. They market a slightly larger part but it won't cause problems with holsters or drawing/re-holstering.
I also like the TangoDown Larry Vickers Glock parts. The M&P type slide release & the re-designed magazine release. Vickers is a retired US Army soldier & spec ops/tier one level operator. He knows what a Glock needs to run properly.
I'm left handed so the new parts may help even with gloves.

RS
www.glockstore.com www.glockworx.com www.tangodown.com www.brownells.com

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I'm surprised about the release being difficult on the 21. It was difficult on my 17, which led me to put an extended one on it. The 30S .45 releases so easy with the standard release button I haven't even considered getting an extended one. Maybe its that it is shorter? Don't know if that makes a difference. I also use an extended takedown bar, ever so slightly longer, but what a difference it makes. No problems with mine, but I have heard a few complain it interfered with their holster....not mine, maybe some are more "extended" than others? To look at mine it looks stock, but it is just large enough to allow much, much easier manipulation.

As to damage, I thought, and may be wrong here, that using the slide release when chambering a round was fine, but not a good idea if the gun is empty.



Russellc

Jim Watson said:

Shooting IDPA as I do, I have necessarily formed the habit of shooting a 1911oid to slide lock, reloading, and wiping the slide stop lever down to disengage and chamber a round with my left thumb as it moves back toward a firing grip.

Glockshooters in the same sport either
1. Rack the slide
or
2. Get their gun set up to bump load as they seat the magazine. Most of the time it doesn't require any modification, it just does it.

So does my Plastic M&P.
My SA based MixMaster 9mm did until I replaced the soft Springfield recoil spring with a 13 lb like I use on my Colt.

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If my Glock locks open, being dead per Cooper notwithstanding, I slam a new mag in and thumb the extended release all in the same movement. I've never had mine "bump" load, how does this work, or does it require modification? Which I am not inclined to do on a defense weapon...school me here.

Russellc

1911Tuner said:

Counting rounds can be done if you keep your wits about you.

Back when Cooper ran Gunsite, and the students entered the Funhouse...any shooter whose slide locked empty was judged "killed" regardless of how he'd done up to that point. Cooper was trying to drive a point home. That being that a gun shot dry is a stoppage...and stoppages aren't conducive to long life.

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I guess he didn't consider dropping the old mag and installing a new one a stoppage? I suppose if you are really fast, you could fire the last chambered round as you slammed the new mag home...

Russellc

I guess he didn't consider dropping the old mag and installing a new one a stoppage?

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I think that his point was that the shooter deciding when to reload is/was better than running the gun dry unexpectedly.