Deadliest cartridge in history

Cee Zee said:

Stick around. It may happen yet. China is on a roll these days and they have a lot of bad memories of western ways from the 19th century.....

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I don’t think you need to worry about that. China’s chance for a non-asian empire ended with the cessation of Admiral Zheng He’s explorations with The Great Fleet during the 15th Century. To pay for all of China’s progress since the death of Mao they created a very expensive bill to pay for all that they delayed doing about their internal affairs that the Chinese common people will soon expect to be paid at the expense of international expansion. The current fear of Chinese economic and military power reminds me of when everybody thought the Japanese in the 1980’s were going to dominate the World economically. It did work out that way for the Japanese. I do wish the Chinese had enough economic leverage to cause the lifting of the U.S. ban on importation of some of their firearms.

Very well, I will settle the question... The deadliest cartridge in history is the 9×17mm or .380 ACP. One single cartridge fired on June 28 1914 killed over 16 million people and can arguably claim another 50 million depending on the source. Let's see any other single cartridge in that range.

Officers'Wife said:

Very well, I will settle the question... The deadliest cartridge in history is the 9×17mm or .380 ACP. One single cartridge fired on June 28 1914 killed over 16 million people and can arguably claim another 50 million depending on the source. Let's see any other single cartridge in that range.

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Twice I have seen this in the thread. This thread is obviously about what cartridge has literally done the most killing. Perhaps metaphorically you are correct about the .380.

JFtheGR8 said:

7.62x39 without a doubt. That round is killing people that we don't even know about in places we never hear about. The body count is adding up as I type this.

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I agree in terms of total body count, but I don't know if it meets the OP's specification about having killed the greatest number of soldiers. My guess is that most of the countless millions of bodies in unmarked graves who were killed with 7.62x39 were civilians and not soldiers.

We should probably look to some of the largest civil wars as likely having the same weapons on both sides. At 20-50 million dead the Taiping Rebellion in China was the 4th deadliest war in history (using the lower 20M figure) and the second deadliest of the firearms area after WW II. It might have been muzzle loaders however and I'm not sure how literal the OP is being about "cartridge".

Mike

The Taiping Rebellion was fought mostly with swords and spears although some muskets were used. It was an early time for cartridges even in the USA. That rebellion was over by 1864 but it started in 1850. We didn't have a lot of cartridge weapons until the Army Revolver was put into service early in the Civil War (around 1861 before they got into action). Those were Colt built handguns and the technology eluded the south throughout the war so I have serious doubts the Chinese were able to fabricate them in large working numbers. Even the Remington revolverwas out of reach of the Chinese forces. It should be pointed out that a bunch of traps were used in that rebellion along with stink pots etc..

Elkins45 said:

I agree in terms of total body count, but I don't know if it meets the OP's specification about having killed the greatest number of soldiers. My guess is that most of the countless millions of bodies in unmarked graves who were killed with 7.62x39 were civilians and not soldiers.

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In that case my vote would be for the .303 because for a very long time the sun never set on the British empire.

Cee Zee said:

You're right about that but I don't think the numbers add up. Since the time the 7.62 x 39 round came into use there have only been a few relatively small wars. The biggest have been Korea and Vietnam. There were other places the 7.62 x 39 was used and many people died but really how many of them were killed with those bullets and how many were killed in a cheaper fashion? Can you name a conflict where you think a lot of people have been killed by the 7.62 x 39? And how many were killed by the AK in those wars? Add all the wars up since WWII and they don't come close to even the Pacific Theater casualties during WWII. That is unless you count the African War which was more about starvation than shooting.

There just haven't been any wars on the scale the world used to see since the 7.62 x 39 came into use. Yes many have died in Africa and the AK has been used there a lot but again most of those deaths are from deliberate starvation.



You might have something there but the question was about "enemy soldiers".

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I see your point. Since the two great wars (WWI and WWII) there has not been a massive war that swept up millions upon millions of people and got many, many different nations all in a massive and diverse conflict.

That being said, the 7.62x39 was very much involved in two very big, yet regional, wars (as you point out):

1. Korean War (still going on btw, with N. Koreans exterminating themselves in untold numbers, perhaps many killed with this round?

2. The Vietnam War

Add in every backwoods/third world conflict of any kind, on any continent EXCEPT perhaps, most NATO countries, and you got a lot of dead people, over an extended amount of time. Central and South America, Africa, the ME, the Far East. Anywhere there is conflict on any kind of scale, but especially Africa and the ME.

All told, you have to think the 7.62x39 is right up there in the top 2 or 3 cartridges responsible for human deaths. But, that is just a guess on my part.

FWIW, a quick bit of googling seems to indicated that most casualities in WWII were due to artillery and not small arms.

Not sure how many people died in the Russian/Afghanistan war but it was a pretty big deal back in the day and both sides were fighting with the 7.63x39 guns...

MedWheeler said:

mgkdrgn writes:



In what country was that ever adopted as a military cartridge?

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22LR (High Standard pistol) was used for training in WWII.

I believe Stalin took WW2 as an opportunity to add in all those executed by his regime and those that died in labor camps to the Russian death total.

Really interesting discussion.

I gotta believe it's one of these 4 in no particular order:

7.62x54R - been around an aweful long time (since the late 1800s), in the largest nation in the world and involved in every war and conflict in the eastern hemisphere since it's inception, and matched with tens of millions of (main battle rifle) Mosin bolt guns and various machine gun platforms and sniper rifles. Think of the number of Russians Stalin killed. We still commonly saw this caliber in Iraq and Afghanistan during OIF and OEF.

8mm Mauser - also been around for a century, chambered in rifles (including main battle rifle) and machine guns, etc. Hitler's guys killed a lot of people and they weren't using harsh language. This also is still used worldwide.

.303 Brit has a long run in both world wars and Africa and other wars, so that's got a nod.

7.62x39 - a shorter run, but in a faster firing platform and widely prolific, and used by a lot of dictators Armies who certainly used it to oppress his own people. Of course, this is a weapon of choice for global oppression and localized fighting on nearly every continent for 7 decades... and also a bunch of wars in Asia, Africa, S. America, Central America, European conflicts, etc. If pressed to vote I'd say this leads the pack, but it would be a tough call.


As for wartime and governmental oppression - sure diseases, starvation, and artillery/bombs account for massive casualties, but the body count from these calibers would be significant even if it was a small percentage of the hundreds of millions that died.

Hands down I'd say it's the german B-Patrone / Soviet PZ. As casualty numbers go, I have no idea but for pure destructive power, these are the deadliest.

https://www.full30.com/video/82efb579fd3c93d177205966ef3d3c9d

More on the Taiping Rebellion, the second deadliest war in the last 353 years (and likely the last 691 years): I see a lot of muskets in woodcuts and photos but also a lot of spears and pole arms. Amazing death toll for primitive weapons!

I suspect the muskets used in the conflict were a hodge-podge of different types and calibers. The most modern were probably supplied by the British and french forces as well as American mercenaries.

This guy appears to have paper cartridges for his matchlock.


Mike

The Soviet / Afghanistan War resulted in 2 million (high estimate) deaths. But like most modern wars the victims were almost certainly either killed with bombs or from RPG's fired at Russian planes and helicopters. We supplied them with a good number of rockets for that reason. But again, the average WWII battle saw less than 10% of casualties coming from bullets and about 75% or more coming from artillery or bombs. And with the Afghan terrain being what it is I'd say the percentage of casualties from rifle fire was pretty low. Again these are just guesses by all of us. We do know certain things like the percentage of people killed by various methods in WWII. Other modern wars were similar too. To me that still leaves the Brits and their giant empire of the 19th and early 20th century. Heck they controlled the middle east between the world wars. It was between them and France anyway. They used their rifles a lot IMO. Probably more than most countries that have been involved in wars since the time of the cartridge.

Cee Zee said:

The Soviet / Afghanistan War resulted in 2 million (high estimate) deaths. But like most modern wars the victims were almost certainly either killed with bombs or from RPG's fired at Russian planes and helicopters. We supplied them with a good number of rockets for that reason. But again, the average WWII battle saw less than 10% of casualties coming from bullets and about 75% or more coming from artillery or bombs. And with the Afghan terrain being what it is I'd say the percentage of casualties from rifle fire was pretty low. Again these are just guesses by all of us. We do know certain things like the percentage of people killed by various methods in WWII. Other modern wars were similar too. To me that still leaves the Brits and their giant empire of the 19th and early 20th century. Heck they controlled the middle east between the world wars. It was between them and France anyway. They used their rifles a lot IMO. Probably more than most countries that have been involved in wars since the time of the cartridge.

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Ditto.

I have yet to see anyone in this thread make a persuasive argument that the British did not do more killing of soldiers with the .303 cartridge than any other military did with another cartridge. Even before WWI they had killed thousands of enemy soldiers in Africa and Asia with .303 rifles and MGs with little use of artillery in comparison to WWI and later wars. By the way in WWII the British used the .303 MG as their primary aircraft automatic weapon during the entire war. Most other nations relied on fewer .50cal. and 20mm weapons.

I'll limit the list to just ten for brevity:

Colt SMG
Uzi
Sten
Mp40
S&W 76
Suomi
Swedish K
MP5
Beretta Model 12
Scorpion

And that is just SMGs.

What major military has not adopted a 9mm?
What major conflict in the past few decades has the 9mm not served on both sides of the conflict?

blarby said:

If we count the buffalo as an enemy of America, as those killing them did, the 45-70 has gotta be pretty well near the top.

Barring that, the two cartridge ends of the teletype machines, whose use spanned a length of time from the civil war to the cold war mostly unchanged except in ink compositions, could arguably take the laurels with ease.

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If we're going to take that route, then we have to add the 12 gauge, as it was chiefly responsible for the extinction of billions of passenger pigeons.

7.62 x 54R. Still in use today.

jdh said:

I'll limit the list to just ten for brevity:

Colt SMG
Uzi
Sten
Mp40
S&W 76
Suomi
Swedish K
MP5
Beretta Model 12
Scorpion

And that is just SMGs.

What major military has not adopted a 9mm?
What major conflict in the past few decades has the 9mm not served on both sides of the conflict?

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All those SMGs you listed were used in relatively small numbers compared to the PPSh and PPS 7.62x25 SMGs Soviet Russian used in WWII. The Russians armed more soldiers with SMGs than all other nations combined. You also have all the Germans using captured 7.62x25 SMGs. I would not be surprised if more soldiers have been killed by Russian 7.62x25 SMGs in WWII than all the people ever killed by 9mm Parabellum bullets from every 9mm weapon. After WWII 9mm SMGs have been carried more by soldiers than used to fight.

I'm pretty sure the x54 has probably killed more folks than the x39. Think about all those machine guns in WWI and II that blasted through that cartridge.

EmbarkChief said:

7.62 x 54R. Still in use today.

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Yes it is still in use, but most of the killing done with it occurred after 1914 and prior to 1946 and there just has not been that much killing done since then in comparison. Until the WWI not much killing was done with the 7.62x54R. In comparison the .303 did quite a bit of killing. I don't have any numbers but I would not be surprised if a handful of G.I.s in Afghanistan have been killed by .303s in the 21st century.