Factory .41 Spl

Could somebody explain to me what the point of 41 Special would be? That is, what would it be able to do that 357 Magnum or 40 S&W (in a Charter Arms-type revolver) can't? Just what benefit does the .053 inch increase in bullet diameter compared to 357 get you?

41 Magnum I understand, because the extra case volume allows it to be more powerful than 357. But a reduced 41 seems to go nowhere, except to provide a mild load for people who already have 41 Magnums, as Vern Humphrey points out. And that sort of thing is enough to keep 44 Special alive, I guess. But 44 Magnum is substantially more popular than 41 Magnum, and, because of its greater power, has even more need for a reduced load. That gives 44 Special a greater base of popularity, which in turns makes guns like the small-frame 44 Special revolvers by Charter Arms and Taurus possible.

If I wanted a 40-odd caliber revolver in something smaller than 44 or 45, I would want it in 40 S&W, because I would know that ammunition would be available in the future, whereas 41 Special could be the next 9mm Federal or 356 TSW. That is why I remarked on "40 S&W AutoRim" early in this thread.

Could somebody explain to me what the point of 41 Special would be?

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I can tell you why I will eventually have a .41Spl built. All the same appeal as the .44Spl plus a couple of its own. It fits into smaller, Colt-sized sixguns where the .41Mag may be inappropriate. It can be loaded from mild to 1200fps without straining those sixguns. What it has over the .44Spl is that it fits into mid-frame, six-shot guns where the .44 wouldn't. Such as rechambered .357's like the GP and L-frame. A much easier conversion to be had because it utilizes a rechambered factory cylinder, rather than the custom five-shot that would be required for the .44Spl.

Actually, I may go a similar but slightly different route with a custom gun I already have planned. A 7½" .38-40 built on an Old Model Ruger .357 Blackhawk. A second cylinder may be done in a pseudo .401 PowerMag. Theoretically, .41Mag brass can be resized in a 10mm carbide sizer die and then reloaded as a .401 with a 10mm expander and possibly a .38-40 seat/crimp die.

It's a big bore and it's a little different.

Thanks, CraigC. What I don't understand is what any of those guns could do in 41 Special that they cannot do in 357 Magnum, in which they could use anything from 38 Special wadcutter all the way up to 180 grain hunting loads?

Here's the problem -- the only people who would buy .41 special ammo are those who already have a .41 Mag. And people who DON'T have a .41 Mag are unlikely to buy one just so they can shoot .41 special ammo.

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But yet gun manufacturers expect one to buy a 44 Magnum, if he wants to shoot 44 Special. I read of those buying a 44 Magnum, especially the Smith model 69, fully intending to use it for 44 special, perhaps exclusively.

Thanks, Barry the Bear! It helps to know the practical reasons why people want this cartridge.

RealGun said:

But yet gun manufacturers expect one to buy a 44 Magnum, if he wants to shoot 44 Special. I read of those buying a 44 Magnum, especially the Smith model 69, fully intending to use it for 44 special, perhaps exclusively.

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For a data point of one, I shoot virtually exclusively 44 Special loads in my Model 69 but I use 44 Magnum cases.

I don't want to clean the carbon ring should I decide to shoot 44 Magnum.

But yet gun manufacturers expect one to buy a 44 Magnum, if he wants to shoot 44 Special. I read of those buying a 44 Magnum, especially the Smith model 69, fully intending to use it for 44 special, perhaps exclusively.

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Actually it's the other way around. The manufacturers produce .44 Special ammo and expect you to shoot it in the wildly popular .44 Magnum.

There aren't enough .41 Mags out there to really justify producing .41 Special ammo in quantity.

I really don't think ammo manufacturers have any expectations as to what you'll shoot their ammo in. IMHO, the .44Spl has been around since 1907 and there should be a goodly number of so-chambered guns in circulation.

I really don't think ammo manufacturers have any expectations as to what you'll shoot their ammo in. IMHO, the .44Spl has been around since 1907 and there should be a goodly number of so-chambered guns in circulation.

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Compare your first sentence with your second sentence. They make .44 Special ammo because there are a lot of guns around to shoot it in. And most of those are .44 Magnums, these days. And more of them are coming off the assembly line every day.

That's something that can't be said about the .41 Magnum, and there are no old revolvers dating back a hundred years chambered for the .41 Special.

missourimike

most interested in your 41 Sp. discussion. Found it looking on this forum for the rumored 41 magnum associates. No successful search so far. The original Keith suggested police load, 215 gr bullet at 950 fps. was the midrange load to be used for the same purposes as your suggest 41 Sp. If that and the top loads don't meet your needs, why have a Special? Ooops. Maybe for a five shot midframe. Sawed of 41 mag cases. By the way, that original Remington police load leaded barrels terrible. Could not keep six rounds on a coffee cup saucer at 25 yds. , - from the bench. Is any factory supplying a police load equivalent now? Lead or jacketed? thanks missourimike

missourimike

we are interested in a FACTORY supplied load because we have 41 mag revolvers we shoot with regularly, travel with, and keep at home. That means we have them for personal and family self defense. I am left handed, 1911's and Brownings dont work for me therefore. Have seen the elephant with a model 58 41 mag, would accept nothing else in its place for a repeat. Prosecuting attys dont like handloads. Your lawyer in the inevitable prosecution or civil suit or both, will have to defend you against charges you reloaded "extra deadly killer ammo"
in your secret garage or basement. Evidence of personal malice and premeditation. You were looking for fight and for someone to kill. It's crazy but that's how it is.

As for the non niche of stepped down calibers, we are not talking market share. We are talking about what works for us. While on culling operations for the US gov. I found that , properly loaded, the 41 mag worked better than 12 gauge slugs, 30-30's, and several 45-70 loads. A good hit with a 41 mag from close, was more deadly than a marginal hit from 100 yds with a 30-06.

another advantage of the 41, mag or special, is that there is more steel over the locking notches on S&W revolvers. It was a favorite of the late American Handgunner winner Dean Grennel, because the extra steel meant that 41's do not go out of time like 44 S&W mags do after a couple of thousand max loads, or sooner, until the recent changes in metallurgy at S&W. It is un-necessary insurance on Ruger Blkhawks, but the extra steel is comforting.

Actually it's the other way around. The manufacturers produce .44 Special ammo and expect you to shoot it in the wildly popular .44 Magnum.

There aren't enough .41 Mags out there to really justify producing .41 Special ammo in quantity.

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That seems a stretch to preserve your point. For starters, 44 Special ammo is so hard to source, especially if at all particular about the bullet and the load, that one is best off being able to make his own.

44 Special is not really comparable to 41 Special because it has a legacy that 41 Special lacks.

we are interested in a FACTORY supplied load because we have 41 mag revolvers we shoot with regularly, travel with, and keep at home. That means we have them for personal and family self defense. I am left handed, 1911's and Brownings dont work for me therefore. Have seen the elephant with a model 58 41 mag, would accept nothing else in its place for a repeat. Prosecuting attys dont like handloads. Your lawyer in the inevitable prosecution or civil suit or both, will have to defend you against charges you reloaded "extra deadly killer ammo"
in your secret garage or basement. Evidence of personal malice and premeditation. You were looking for fight and for someone to kill. It's crazy but that's how it is.

As for the non niche of stepped down calibers, we are not talking market share. We are talking about what works for us. While on culling operations for the US gov. I found that , properly loaded, the 41 mag worked better than 12 gauge slugs, 30-30's, and several 45-70 loads. A good hit with a 41 mag from close, was more deadly than a marginal hit from 100 yds with a 30-06.

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The new guy on the white horse. I think the legal issues of reloading should be reserved for a different thread.

.41 Special has appeal because it can be 6 shots on a medium large frame, a la the mid size 357 magnum, the platform for the typical conversion, using the same cylinder. e.g. the Ruger GP100 with new barrel.

I believe the performance in the Special case size would be at a different pressure and could give much better accuracy results than you describe in a mild magnum case load.

I am not waiting for ammo makers to support the 41 Special, prepared to load my own when my gun is ready, but it would be a necessary commitment for gun manufacturers to produce guns specifically for the chambering.

if you care to tell me I'm wrong provide me with a picture or link to this .41 russian.

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Not everything worth knowing is on the internet.
I found mention of the .41 S&W No 3 New Model (It couldn't be a .41 Russian, because the Russians only bought .44s.) in the Standard Catalog of S&W, 3rd edition, page 102 and 104: "Unusual Calibers...Among the rarest would be .38 S&W, .38 Long Colt, and .41 S&W."
I have seen mention of it on the S&W board but I can't write a search there that won't bring up hundreds of references to .41 Magnum and dozens to .41 Special.

Just a thought, how long was the case of the old .401 Herter's compared to 41 mag?

-kBob

Info I have is 1.285".

By Real GunThat seems a stretch to preserve your point. For starters, 44 Special ammo is so hard to source, especially if at all particular about the bullet and the load, that one is best off being able to make his own.

44 Special is not really comparable to 41 Special because it has a legacy that 41 Special lacks.

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Thank you for making my point for me. If .44 Special Ammo is adversely affected by lack of demand, you can see right away how that impacts the proposed .41 Special. There won't be enough demand to make it economically feasible.

But yet gun manufacturers expect one to buy a 44 Magnum, if he wants to shoot 44 Special. I read of those buying a 44 Magnum, especially the Smith model 69, fully intending to use it for 44 special, perhaps exclusively.

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In terms of being practical, it would make more sense for these people to get something in .45LC as ammo is less costly and easier to find.


I mentioned the .44 spl as an endangered species because of its decline in popularity over the years. It had a long history as a popular carridge before they ever made the .44 mag from it. Today the 44 mag is much more popular, and the spl hangs by history more than anything. All you need to do is look at ammo sales and availability and price. .44 spl, if you can find it, is priced higher than 44 magnum. Granted, there has been some increase in interest for 44 spl snubbies from revolver die hards with the growing concealed carry across the country, but hardly a boom.

I view a "niche" as something with a significant demand that is not currently being offered. A custom 41 spl might make an interesting conversation piece for a gun enthusiast, but I can't see a small frame revolver holding 6 shots instead of 5, or less noise as being enough of a "niche" to have a realistic market for a new cartridge and revolver to shoot it when they barely sell enough 41 mags to continue making them, if they still do.

I can get that some people are real fans of this cartridge, and I doin't begrudge that at all. I'm just saying there are not enough of you to make this idea a worthwhile mass production commercial endeavor, or somebody would be doing it.

In terms of being practical, it would make more sense for these people to get something in .45LC as ammo is less costly and easier to find.

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Thank you for those words of wisdom.

That's why I have a Colt New Service (on which I mounted adjustable sights) and a Ruger Blackhawk.

The problem with the .45 Colt, though, is that modern double-action revolvers are almost as rare as .41 Magnums.

If .44 Special Ammo is adversely affected by lack of demand,

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Except that it's not. People are forced to make their own for lack of ammo maker support, or they don't care to shoot any but there own in any event. I don't see the cause and effect necessarily. You have to know the makers (and the LGS) are going to saturate the big 3-4 calibers and then consider the rest. It may have as much to do with the most popular calibers being heavily used or hoarded, leaving little capacity for the others.

People are forced to make their own for lack of ammo maker support, or they don't care to shoot any but there own in any event. I don't see the cause and effect necessarily.

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See above -- if people are not willing to buy large quantities of ammo, ammo makers will not make that cartridge, or only make small quantities with limited choices of bullet weights and so on.