loading 308. frustrated.. hitting the limits of rifle, or shooter?

A lot of good comments above. I think the rifle is shooting as it should. I have a few savages, one in .308. It would group everything ok, but then I found 1 load that it shot excellent. This might be the case here. Try imr 4895 under a Sierra 165 grain game king before upgrading your gun. Good luck

The 1 MOA milsurp was my goal

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That's been my goal with my M1A, however, it wasn't originally my goal. When I first got it, my goal was every round inside a paper plate at 200 yards with M80 ball ammo. Did that, then had to set a new goal.

fast forward 9 months later and now I have $2k in reloading equipment and continue to chase the sub MOA dragon. I've been able to do it fairly consistently with occasional excursions into the sub 2 MOA. I get frustrated when it happens, but then I have to remind myself:

1. You're trying to do this with a mostly stock, rack grade M1A.
2. You're learning and enjoying new dimensions of the shooting hobby
3. You killed a dear with it last year
4. You are not David Tubbs

IMR4895 was the best powder used in Lake City arsenal's 7.62 NATO match ammo. Same for the .30-06. One arsenal proved long ago that weighed charges of IMR4064 shot more accurate than weighed IMR4895, but their high speed powder measures didn't dump as precise of charge weights with IMR4064; IMR4895 did better with less spread.

People handloading their own ammo with new cases used IMR4064 for best accuracy for both cartridges.

Scope magnification is ?
How does the stock fit you with the scope setup?
Are you on bags, bag and bipod, or heaven forbid one of those %$#@ sled things?
Might need to stiffen up the factory stock, or upgrade like others have suggested.
See a fair number of package rifles with cheap scopes, in cheap rings, set kinda high.

For 100 yard ammo testing I prefer a minimum of 12X.

Plastic stock forend hollows filled with epoxy (maybe use tubes of metal or carbon to lessen epoxy use).

Try that.

Then if still not happy, bed recoil lug.

Try again.

I've gotten Remington and Savage Tupperware to shoot very well going that route. No need for full action bedding.

Did on a couple walnut sporters way back, shot great...........lot of work.
I no longer mess with wood stocks. The work and risk of an error (decent figure)............plus then worrying about dinging them up afield...............synth is the way to go.

I rather liked my HS precision stocked Remingtons.

BTW, most of my rifles have been in .243 Win. Varmint hunting. I run 4350 and 70gr Noslers. My worst rifle, current 700 that has not had any real load development.................is at .75" (shot up some stuff left over from other 700 yrs back).

In 22" bbls the 4350 with the light bullets does have some blast. Farmer said it sounded like the Hounds of Hell were comin'
End of season 30 chucks off one field. Never did pop one corner to corner, which would have been just over 500.

Due to hole locations and topography, they died at 300 and under. There was one at the back corner.............never got a shot at him though.
Have yet to get into the 500 club

Good times.

I've had a lot of issue with my Trophy Hunter 30'06. I couldn't get mine to group at all. I then found out the scope rings that come with it are junk. You need to throw those away.My groups got a little better, but was still bad.I then found out all my screws in my stock were loose.I ended up buying a torque screwdriver and going thru it. It got a lot better after that . But I have found that after the 2nd shot you have to let it cool before shooting the 3rd bullet.Its definitely not a range gun coming from the factory. My hog Hunter shoots much better.

anothernewb said:

Well, sounds like my expectations were absurdly high then. I'm satisfied with the rifle in general, I was jut hoping to get one of those magical "one hole' three shot groups - you know how it goes.

That last target had a sticky bullseye on it when it was set up, but the first shot blew it off.

I will try a bag rest. I have one but don't hardly use it. I am comfortable shooting the rifle, without the lead sled after 20-30 rounds I get kinda sore and flinchy though... My biggest complaint about shooting it is my heartbeat. it's so stinking strong that it bounces in the scope. I have to be very careful with breathing and trigger timing to minimize it.

Generally, the rifle will shoot 2 touching or near touching holes, and then the third is always the odd one out. don't really understand why. The nice thing with the sights set up right now is that the very first- absolute cold bore shot, whether it be a 150 or a 168 is either right on, or within about 1/4 of the bull. I know it should be higher to maximize the point blank range, but realistically - in my area there just aren't longer than 200 yard shots on deer - or at least I know what 200 yards looks like and I won't take a longer one. I don't trust being able to hit one.

As far as a replacement stock - I would love a nice wood stock - but I have a lefty rifle...one of the reasons I bought this one. one of the few that comes in left.

I'll load up some more rounds and shoot some 3 shot groups and post them up for more analysis.

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LH wood stocks for your Savage 11 is as easy as going to Boyd's website. You can get either a laminated wood stock or walnut stock in one of many styles.
I have several LH Savage rifles,and they all are in aftermarket LH stocks. Some are laminated wood stocks and others are in composite stocks.

If you can't figure out how to navigate around on Boyd's website shoot me a PM and I'll give you some help.It can be complicated if you don't know what exact rifle style you have.

Depends on the use.

Some guns will not shoot less than 2 MOA and it doesn't matter what ammo that you run through it. Maybe the action isn't true or the stock bedding is bad. Maybe the chamber wasn't reamed properly or the barrel not crowned properly. As long as my shots were under 300 yards I wouldn't worry about it in a hunting rifle. Now if you are talking long range or varmint calibers, 2 MOA isn't going to cut it.

I have killed a pickup load of whitetails with guns that shot 3 MOA. The max range was never over 100 yards.

I can get 1-2.5 in groups at 100yds with my 308s and feel lucky when I do. I figure if I can keep my groups within fist sized out to 250-300yds that's all I need for deer since their heart is around fist sized give or take.

I once watched over a dozen people shoot the same .308 Win. chambered match rifle at 100 yards. They held it against their shoulder as it rested on bags atop a bench. Each shot 5 rounds picked at random from the same lot.

Groups ranged from 3/4 inch to a bit over 2.

It had previously shot that same ammo under 1/3 inch clamped in a free recoiling machine rest.

Go figure.

A hunting rifle's accuracy matters most on the first shot. 1.5" will fill the freezer every time if you do your part, and your pics clearly show you are capable of that.

I see pictures all over with people shooting old wwII relics and other cheap entry guns that place these beautiful 1/2" or better all the time

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Don't believe most of what you see on the internet. Many folks post 1 or 2 stellar groups and "conveniently" leave out the 30 bad groups they shot trying to get their gun to shoot.....

If you really want the best accuracy out of a rifle reloading is the only way to go. It's a great hobby and very fulfilling when you get a gun shooting much better than with factory ammo.

have someone else (a good shooter) shoot the rifle to eliminate the possibility of you being the problem.

shoot some match ammo to eliminate the ammo from the equation.

luck,

murf

You may want to watch this video. Savage 11 Trophy Hunter XP Sub MOA .308.

His initial results with the rifle seem to parallel yours to a point. Note the changes he made to the rifle. Looking at your paper plates. I figure at a few hundred yards if those plates were an elk, large buck, hog or other suitable game for the 308 Winchester it would be dead. The name of the rifle alone implies it's a hunting rifle and looking at all things considered a darn good hunting rifle.

Just My Take....
Ron

anothernewb said:

Picked up a Savage Trophy Hunter XP a few years ago. I think basically it's a 11/111 package with a scope. basic plastic stock and accu-trigger.

Have been trying to work up loads for it and coming up with just plain blah. Starting to think that it's just a hunter - not a tight grouping gun. I see pictures all over with people shooting old wwII relics and other cheap entry guns that place these beautiful 1/2" or better all the time... I consistently turn in 1.5" to 2" groups - and that's it.

I've bought basic ammo, match ammo, super duper premium ammo, and basic components and super duper premium components.

Here's the funny part - everything groups about the same. from core lokts to ultra super duper gold medal match. from 150 grains to 175 military match...I've matched headstamps, water volumes, etc...

Here's some pictures of the average groups I get.

The upper plate is federal gold medal match 168 grain, the lower is 150 grain core lokt


Here's my best two targets:

42 grains 4064 with SMK 168 grainers 2.80 OAL (6 shots)


and 42.5 grains RL15 under the same bullet, and same length



the 4064 load is my best, but the two holes are nearly an inch apart.

I'm just at my wits end. what do I try adjusting - or am I being unrealistic. If the gun is just a good hunting gun and I shouldn't be pursuing touching holes, then so be it. but I have hit the limits of my understanding at this point. I shoot from a led sled. wait a minimum 60 seconds between shots...

gah....maddening. Maybe I should just stick to pistols. they're easier.

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I'm a somewhat new shooter and I have discovered the gun makes a huge difference. I have a10/22 takedown that shot .5 inch groups at 25 yards. Thought that was good. Then I bought a old wood stock used 10/22 and it could shot holes in holes.

Have a rem 700 w/mcmillan stock that shoots about 1 moa always felt like I struggled with it. Then I bought a savage 10 fcp w/mcmillan stock and within the first few rounds I shot a 3 group holes in holes at 100. (Usually holes are just touching or 2 overlap and one touching)

This is shooting off a front /rear bag with probably not great technique

If by chance one recalls the Remington M788 economy grade rifle which had a tendency to be as accurate or more so than examples of the higher grade M700 of the same time period.

With my Remington 40X 7.62 NATO with 1963 Match XM 118 Lot LC 12010 with the open base 173 Gr bullet as a tendency to shoot better groups than certain brands of Match ammunition currently in production.

In my opinion the shooter controls the accuracy potential more so than the rifle, optics and ammunition if there is no equipment deficiencies.

In my opinion the shooter controls the accuracy potential more so than the rifle, optics and ammunition if there is no equipment deficiencies.

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I agree. But what's the first thing we do when we don't shoot as well as the last, best time? We start looking for something wrong with our equipment when the problem is likely us.

Anothernewb,

Did you ever try shooting off of good solid bags instead of a lead sled?

They say, believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. If this slogan was branded for stories in the real world, then just imagine what slogan should be said about guys posting pictures or stories on the internet.

you cant believe all the pictures people post on the internet about their sub MOA groups. For all we know, that target could have been placed 10 yards from the shooter and we would be none the wiser about it.

In real life shooting, at real life ranges, I have witnessed with my own eyes how people shoot. The majority of people are not MOA shooters. The majority of people cannot keep foster style slugs inside 6" at 70 yards or more. The majority of people shooting a pistol are lucky to keep a magazine of 15 rounds (all) inside a paper plate at 8 yards.

Mind you, the things I have seen are in no way scientific studies with control groups and what have you, but I believe they are closer to "the norm" than what people over the internet let off to believe.

With that being said, I have seen handfuls of people who do shoot MOA - 1.25" groups at 100 yards with bolt action hunting rifles and off the shelf Winchester, Federal, Remington ammo. It isn't seen very often, but I do see it and I have seen at least 10-15 people do it.

My questions are, how do some of your other rifles shoot that you have developed loads for? Have any of your other rifles got to MOA or sub MOA (without) modifications?

If you have developed loads for other off shelf hunting rifles that have done MOA or better, then perhaps your new rifle could be just that, (a shooter/hunter) capable of 1.5"-2" groups

Fundamentals= the people who push them on you are having fun at your expence and are demented. But really, keep pulling the trigger and the rest will come.