Parking lot sale?

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Elkins45

Elkins45

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I was told by someone who works in a gun shop that it is against federal law for two private parties to conduct a gun sale on the premises of a liscenced dealer. IOW if your local Wal-Mart sells guns it is somehow prohibited for two guys to have a private transaction in the parking lot.

I have looked into the FFL regs a bit but I can see nothing related to private sales on a licensed premises. I would love for someone to point me the the specific statute if it is true, or is this just another example of someone "knowing" something that is wrong?
 
Either misinformed or doesn't want private sales taking place on the premises. If an employee, he may have been deliberately misinformed by the owner because they don't want private sales taking place on the premises. And as a business, they have that right where their property is concerned; I wouldn't let one customer of mine take cash to fix another customer's car in my lot, and I doubt any restaurant would be OK with a roach coach doing business on their property. A private sale taking place on the premises of a gun shop isn't so far removed.

But no, it's not illegal.
 
I was on the premises of a small gunshop when a guy came in to sell a 44 Special Taurus revolver. The gun shop owner began neotiations, and I was leaving anyway so I walked out to the parking lot.

As I got to my truck which was about 6' from the door, I saw the guy leaving with his revolver and a pissed off look on his face. He'd parked next to me, so I asked him what he wanted for the gun. Guy said he wanted $450 but the owner had offered only $150.

At that price point I wasn't interested but I told the guy he might try elsewhere, but be aware nobody would pay retail for a used gun to resell.

About then the owner came outside and started shouting at us for trying to do a deal in his parking lot because THE ATF FORBIDS IT! We could all be arrested and he lose his FFL!

At any rate, I told him I wasn't interested, and was leaving anyway.

Here's where it gets weird.

I drove to another gun store in town and bought a H&R shotgun.

When I went out to the parking lot, here was the guy with the Taurus who had seen my truck in the lot, waiting for me, and wanted me to buy his revolver. Said he would take $400. I declined. So the guy got mad at me for "stringing him along".

Really? Some people!
 
Should've offered him $175. Better deal than the other guy offered him.

It's still sad that either due to misinformation or some other reason, FFL holders often don't know as much about gun sales laws as they probably should.

I had an FFL call me in to amend a 4473 days after I'd taken possession of the gun, because they weren't away an Air Force Base acted as it's own city for Place of Birth.
 
Not illegal in Wyoming, but maybe in poor taste. I've seen people in gun stores intrude on negotiations between a customer and the store employee, either offering more for the customer's gun or in some cases telling a potential buyer that he could buy the gun cheaper from GunBroker or down the street.

One of the reasons the local Sportsman's Warehouse started limiting ammo purchases was guys buying all they could carry, then selling it out of the trunk of their car in the SW parking lot.

Legal, but I understand why the store management would be upset.
 
I have bought and sold a number of guns in the parking lot at gun shows. Saves a lot of walking and filling out forms. Almost every time I decided to lug a rifle or shotgun around inside a gun show with a "for sale" attached to it - I never even made it to the door before someone wanted it. I think it would be amusing to watch ATF agents "patrolling" the parking lot at every gun show trying to close that nasty old "gunshow loophole" to save all of the "children" being "murdered" by guns. I worked gun shows for a few years and the ATF would have agents walking around trying to trick people into violating some law - and within 5 minutes of them entering the building every single dealer in the venue would know what they were wearing and what they looked like and no one would give them the time of day. Just nasty looks. It was pretty funny.
 
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The owner of any parking lot can ask you to leave for any reason, whether for haggling over guns or whatever. If you refuse, get ready for law enforcement to help you to move along. The same thing applies when you are told to leave a building as well.
 
It is not illegal, but often people arrange private sales at a gun shop (sometimes with the knowledge of the dealer) then carry out the transaction in the dealer's parking lot. This has caused BATFE to have a bit of heartburn because the dealer is not supposed to allow private transactions in his store or on his premises; if the transaction is illegal, he could be charged as a party to it and and lose his license.

But a general parking lot is not the store's premises, and the dealer has no control over it, so I suspect the concern is overblown, though not totally unrealistic.

Jim
 
I required a function test at a range for a machine gun purchase. After some range time and a bunch of money turned into noise, we started the paperwork in the lounge of the gun club and promptly got chased away by a very concerned employee. We ended up filling out the paper work sitting in the seller's car.

Mike
 
Jim K said:
It is not illegal, but often people arrange private sales at a gun shop (sometimes with the knowledge of the dealer) then carry out the transaction in the dealer's parking lot. This has caused BATFE to have a bit of heartburn because the dealer is not supposed to allow private transactions in his store or on his premises; if the transaction is illegal, he could be charged as a party to it and and lose his license.

But a general parking lot is not the store's premises, and the dealer has no control over it, so I suspect the concern is overblown, though not totally unrealistic.

Jim
Click to expand...
You're telling me two contradictory things here. First you say it's not illegal but then you say the dealer is not supposed to allow it.

Can you point me to an actual law or regulation stating this?
 
There are ATF requirements for an FFL "facilitating" a private transaction. It appears to be intended for cases where the two parties take a gun to the dealer and want to do a background check, but who knows how the ATF could interpret the word facilitate. Knowing a gun deal is taking place on your premises and approving of it - or not stopping it - could be construed as facilitating.

www.atf.gov/file/4961/download

"The procedures below must be followed when the private party (seller) takes a firearm to an FFL with the prospective transferee (buyer) to conduct a transaction."

I think I know what the intent of the reg is, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to interpretation or reinterpretation by the the ATF on any given day.
 
"To facilitate means to make something easier."

Thought I'd add the textbook definition. Letting two guys use your parking lot certainly makes it easier for them to complete the deal.
 
Previous post:" I worked gun shows for a few years and the ATF would have agents walking around trying to trick people into violating some law".

Many years ago I was at a gun show looking for a AR15. A guy was walking around with a AR15 for sale and asked if i was looking for one. I said yes and he offered it for $600.00, then opened it up and asked if I knew what a certain item was as he pointed to a FA sear. Told him I didn't have that much cash and he told me "that's OK I'll take your check and we can go outside and make the deal. I looked around and all the dealers were watching and very quiet. Told the guy tht wasn't really what I was looking for, thanks anyway. Pretty sure it was a STING.
 
The Upper East Tennessee/South West Virginia border area has some odd restrictions imposed on dealers. There are state laws on gun dealing in addition to the Federal Firearms License. Guns stolen in VA are fenced in TN and vice versa. Dealers are suspicious of people who try to conduct private transactions on their premises apparently because the dealers would be seen as facilitating illegal transactions by allowing their business property to be used as meeting places for unknown person selling/trading/buying guns of unknown provenance. There are fluid interdiction operations run by ATF in response to local and current illegal trafficking problems. Parking lot sales between individuals may or may not be a legal problem, may or may not be an ATF concern, depending on things other than the letter of the federal gun laws.
 
Of course, transferring a gun through a dealer, with the NICS check and A&D record, is not what is under discussion. As I understand it, the question concerns a case where two "customers" meet at a gun shop, make a deal on a gun one of them has with him, and exchange money and gun on the dealer's premises, which may include his parking lot if it is part of the shop's property.

AFAIK, BATFE claims the dealer must take steps to stop that kind of transaction, even though it may be legal under the state or local law, since it is not part of his business of buying and selling guns. I witnessed a dealer telling a couple of "customers" that his shop was not a swap meet and to leave his store and his property.

If that is not correct, or there are written regulations on the subject, I would appreciate the information.

Jim
 
I had one like evan price in #5 except that I bought the gun.
The dealer would not pay or trade him much, so I bought it in the parking lot.
I was a regular at that store and the dealer did not mind, it was not competing with anything he had in stock. But it was years ago and there are more laws and regulations or at least fear of regulation.
 
Jim K said:
Of course, transferring a gun through a dealer, with the NICS check and A&D record, is not what is under discussion. As I understand it, the question concerns a case where two "customers" meet at a gun shop, make a deal on a gun one of them has with him, and exchange money and gun on the dealer's premises, which may include his parking lot if it is part of the shop's property.

AFAIK, BATFE claims the dealer must take steps to stop that kind of transaction, even though it may be legal under the state or local law, since it is not part of his business of buying and selling guns. I witnessed a dealer telling a couple of "customers" that his shop was not a swap meet and to leave his store and his property.

If that is not correct, or there are written regulations on the subject, I would appreciate the information.

Jim
Click to expand...
So this (if true) would seem to put all of the weight of legality on the dealer and not on the two guys doing the private transaction? The sellers aren't committing a crime but Wal-Mart needs to run them off if they see a sale is about to take place?

What I was told was very specifically that the sellers were committing a crime. I can't find anything to support that assertion.
 
Parking Lot Transactions

:eek:Discretion is the better part of valor-as the old saying goes.

If two people wish to do anything in a parking lot I assure thee it can/will/be/most likely-DONE.

We all know the rules of the parking lot. It's like a bar-one can do just about anything in a bar-same as parking lot. Don't draw attention to whatever you might be doing in said parking lot.

How many things have been found in the trunk of cars parked in an airport or other large parking deck, lot, etc. ?
 
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"The procedures below must be followed when the private party (seller) takes a firearm to an FFL with the prospective transferee (buyer) to conduct a transaction."

I think I know what the intent of the reg is, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to interpretation or reinterpretation by the the ATF on any given day.
Click to expand...

I do not see how this applies to two guys deciding to meet in ANY parking lot to do a deal, FFL or not. No different than when I met a guy at a McD's lot where we both pulled in next to a Sheriff's car as the deputies were inside eating and sitting in the window watching as we exchanged cash for gun.
 
Switch parking lots. I have done several transactions in police station parking lots. Only one of them was with an actual LEO (butchered Gew98 that will become a 6.5x55). They're well lit and have lots of cameras. I've only been interrupted once by an LEO during a transaction and that was out of curiosity. He had been looking for an M44 or M38 and I had just bought an M38.

I've only had one person refuse to meet at a police station. He wanted to meet at an informal range that was way to isolated for my taste/safety so that never happened.

Matt
 
I checked today with a dealer who is well up on all the laws and BATFE regulations, and he tells me that there is no rule or regulation barring people engaging is a private gun transfer in a gun shop or its parking lot, provided it is otherwise legal. He thinks some dealers may claim such transactions are illegal for the reason that the dealer doesn't make any money on a private deal.

Jim
 
Jim K, I'm glad you mentioned that. I looked at this thread a couple of days ago, then scurried off to the statutes and federal regulations, but I couldn't find anything that makes it illegal to buy or sell a gun in an FFL's parking lot. Naturally, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I couldn't find it.
 
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