9.3x62 vs 338 Lapua for African plains game

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Even with the issues I had with my rifle I would still recommend Winchester if you are looking for a 375. I like the Safari Express over the Alaskan but that is just me. The front sling swivel on the Alaskan is in the wrong spot for me...

I looked hard at CZ, Remington, Savage, and Sako. I went with Winchester because it was in my price range, and I could actually find one here in town. Or rather, found a shop here in town that didn't try to sell me something I didn't want off their shelf or charge me extra to order one in. The CZ holds more rounds, 5 to the 4 of the Winchester, but I couldn't find one in my price range or that could be ordered.

That being said, Winchester, at least when I bought mine, was using silly putty for bedding. So be warned.

If and when I ever restock my rifle it will be in one of these:
https://mcmillanusa.com/mcmillan-rifle-stocks/hunting-stocks-winchester-win-express/

Oh, and yes mine will cycle empty cases.
 
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Robert said:
Even with the issues I had with my rifle I would still recommend Winchester if you are looking for a 375. I like the Safari Express over the Alaskan but that is just me. The front sling swivel on the Alaskan is in the wrong spot for me...

I looked hard at CZ, Remington, Savage, and Sako. I went with Winchester because it was in my price range, and I could actually find one here in town. Or rather, found a shop here in town that didn't try to sell me something I didn't want off their shelf or charge me extra to order one in. The CZ holds more rounds, 5 to the 4 of the Winchester, but I couldn't find one in my price range or that could be ordered.

That being said, Winchester, at least when I bought mine, was using silly putty for bedding. So be warned.

If and when I ever restock my rifle it will be in one of these:
https://mcmillanusa.com/mcmillan-rifle-stocks/hunting-stocks-winchester-win-express/

Oh, and yes mine will cycle empty cases.
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Robert,

Having played with all of the rifles you mentioned. You made the right choice on the M-70. A bedding job is the least of the problems I've seen with every one of the rifle you mentioned except the Sako. The Sako is pretty much GTG. Except for the new M-85's with "CRF" have some serious feeding issues.

There isn't a modern production rifle built today that can be counted on to be DG ready out of the box. They all need some tweaking before they are DG ready. Some (CZ) more than others.
 
H&Hhunter said:
There isn't a modern production rifle built today that can be counted on to be DG ready out of the box. They all need some tweaking before they are DG ready. Some (CZ) more than others.
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Just one data point I know but .....

I've had zero issues with my Kimber Talkeetna and I've put well over 500 rounds through it. I competed in the "World Safari Challenge" last year in Libby, MT and was one of the few competitors running the bolt effortlessly without breaking form. If you want to see 120+ DG rifles being worked hard and fast that's the place to do it. Many other shooters experienced numerous malfunctions when trying to run the bolt fast, probably for the first time. I've had zero malfunctions feeding, firing or ejecting and got lots of questions about my rifle when other competitors noticed how well it performed. I bought mine for $1,600 on a pro deal when I was working at Remington and I would do it again in a heart beat. I didn't have to fix anything on the rifle.
 
When I took the Mod 70 SS in .375 ( quite a bit lighter and handier than the wood stock super Express)and one in the same configuration in .338 winmag, my guide just used simple auto body "Bondo". He pored it in, used Saran wrap on the action as a Release Agent and didn't quite screw the action down tight. 24 hours later, he took it out, scraped off the excess and we went to the range. Bingo1 I was impressed! I used both rifles, on two different hunts with excellent results. He used the 165 XBT in a prior brought over, same configuration, 300 Winmag(* in which I shot a Gemsbuck cow with) the 210xbt in the 338 ( in which I shot my longest range Springbuck). I also used the .375 H&H on a Huge Warthog. My other friends used both my Remington 700 BDL SS and the Mark X Whitworth Express .375 with the 270 Failsafe on Blesbuck and zebra, Waterbuck and Impala and warthog. No meat loss. I did the same "exact thing with the same exact results" with my 35 Whelen AI and 200X ( equal to a 9.3x62 BTW). The 300 WinMag and 180 XBT ( around 3100fps) killed Impala, Blesbuck, zebra, Kudu, Blue Wildebeast, Big Namibian Gemsbuck and Springbuck with EASE. Tough choices, huh? lol
 
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Wow, thank you all for the replies! I am personally a fan of Tikka and Sako so that's more the direction I was leaning, but I'm very glad to hear other options. Still trying to decide which to take, the 9.3 or the 375, by brother wanted to take a 45/70 but after looking at the ballistic data I think he has decided on a 375 for himself.
 
MCMXI said:
Just one data point I know but .....

I've had zero issues with my Kimber Talkeetna and I've put well over 500 rounds through it. I competed in the "World Safari Challenge" last year in Libby, MT and was one of the few competitors running the bolt effortlessly without breaking form. If you want to see 120+ DG rifles being worked hard and fast that's the place to do it. Many other shooters experienced numerous malfunctions when trying to run the bolt fast, probably for the first time. I've had zero malfunctions feeding, firing or ejecting and got lots of questions about my rifle when other competitors noticed how well it performed. I bought mine for $1,600 on a pro deal when I was working at Remington and I would do it again in a heart beat. I didn't have to fix anything on the rifle.
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That is good news. I have not played with a Talkeetna. But I can tell you that I've seen several Kimber rifles that were absolute lemons. With that in mind the only way to find out if your rifle is going to become a problem child is to do exactly as you've done. Use it and use it hard it'll eventually let you know if it has hidden gremlins.

PS

This is not a them vs us statement. I am simply stating the fact that I've yet to see a manufacturer that did not have QC issues. When we are talking about DG hunting it matters.
 
H&Hhunter said:
This is not a them vs us statement. I am simply stating the fact that I've yet to see a manufacturer that did not have QC issues. When we are talking about DG hunting it matters.
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Absolutely, and I offer nothing more than my personal experience with one rifle. However, I am surprised to read that Sako and CZ have QC issues too. Regardless, a person would be foolish to head off into the bush with an unproven rifle. Luckily for many of the competitors at the WSC last year, the only thing to get hurt was their ego. In the real world many of them would be dead or maimed, depending I suppose on how good their PH was. There is no better way to test a rifle than run it under stress. You will find binding bolts, lazy magazine springs, poorly designed magazine boxes, defective magazine feedlips, lame followers, weak extractors and weak ejectors in very short order.
 
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The .375 ain't that bad recoil wise. In the same neighborhood as a 12ga magnum turkey load or slug. Not fun after the first 5 or 10, but manageable.

Where are you located? Maybe you can meet up with a member that has one and try it out.
 
MCMXI said:
However, I am surprised to read that Sako and CZ have QC issues too.
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The Sako 85 is developing a very bad reputation as being a finicky feeder. The older PF Sakos seem to be rock solid. Some CZ rifles are a mess. They are a very nice solid platform from which to build a good DG rifle but they can have a double truck load of quirky issues that need to be addressed before they can be considered reliable. Safety bounce, feeding issues, stock cracking and that set trigger having the bad habit of falling off at the most inopportune times.

The main issues I've seen with Model 70's are extremely poor bedding, out of round muzzle crowns and I've heard of some extraction issues due to QC problems.

Now before anybody jumps me with their shinning review of their CZ rifle. Understand that these are the issues we've seen on some rifles and they should be looked for. I am not saying that every one of them is flawed.
 
Fred in Wisc said:
The .375 ain't that bad recoil wise. In the same neighborhood as a 12ga magnum turkey load or slug. Not fun after the first 5 or 10, but manageable.

Where are you located? Maybe you can meet up with a member that has one and try it out.
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I'm out of ABQ, New Mexico, I'd buy the bullets if anyone had one they would let a new person test. If not no worries, I completely understand!

Another note, what are your (the forums) thoughts on used guns? Worth the risk?
 
Used guns are just fine. But like buying a used car it may not be 100% and may need a little work.

I am just up I-25 in Colorado Springs. If you are up this way on a Tuesday or Thursday maybe we can set up a range trip.

The main issues I've seen with Model 70's are extremely poor bedding, out of round muzzle crowns
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Sounds like you were shooting my rifle ;)
 
Most large caliber guns bought used will have a low round count and minimal use. Although I'd still want to see it in person, shoot it if possible, rather than buying online....
 
While I don't think you need a .375 H&H for a plains game hunt where's the fun in that? Don't overlook the old "Whitworth" line of rifles imported/produced/concocted by the now defunct Interarms. My .375 is a modified Whitworth and is absolutely reliable and eerily accurate for a gun with only a peepsight/front post combo. Good old fashioned wooden stock and available for around $1,000 or less if you shop around.

I purchased mine used at a gun show and I wish it could talk. So far I've taken one large whitetail deer with it, minimal meat damage and perfect satisfaction. I did have a gunsmith convert it over to a flag safety from the shotgun style safety they came with.
 
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Robert said:
Used guns are just fine. But like buying a used car it may not be 100% and may need a little work.
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I actually am drawn to a well used and worn heavy rifle on the used rack. To me that means the rifle is probably a good functioning rifle that has been well tested. The reason that rifle is on the rack is most likely that the previous owner has died. The one that sets off the caution bells in my head is the shiny, like new, heavy rifle with an extremely low round count. It might be okay or you might get to find out why it went on sale at such a young age.

The perfect used rifle in my book is well worn, a bit bush battered yet has a perfect bore and mechanics. One that has obviously been well used and well cared for. I picked up that exact description in a shark fin pre war model 70 for $800. The rifle was worn, missing most of the blueing on the floor plate and had a good bit of character. The bore looked shiny, bright and like new. The stock had been professionally bedded in the way that Whelen recommended with three pressure points. My thought immediately was that this rifle was loved by a rifleman. One trip to the range and my first 5 shot 1/2" group proved my instinct correct!



Robert said:
Sounds like you were shooting my rifle ;)
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Yes yours and my .30-06 prior to yours and several others after yours. I am the go to guy around here when a rifle isn't shooting well. ;) I don't fix them but I can tell you if it's your poor shooting or the if it's the rifle.
 
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Robert said:
Used guns are just fine. But like buying a used car it may not be 100% and may need a little work.

I am just up I-25 in Colorado Springs. If you are up this way on a Tuesday or Thursday maybe we can set up a range trip.


Sounds like you were shooting my rifle ;)
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That's awesome, thank you for the offer, we will have to give it a shot sometime!

On another note I'm still torn between the 9.3 and the 375. I've leaned both ways during this conversation and it's very interesting! I think I was almost swung into the 375 camp but then the gentleman posted about his very easy shooting 416 and suddenly I started to wonder if the overlap would be too much with a 375 and a 9.3 to justify both medium bores and then a heavier bore rifle. So I suppose I'll ask that. Oh Sages of the Shotguns, Rulers of the Rifles, Princes of Pistols (sorry it's late and the pain meds just kicked in heh) would you say that it's a one-or-the-other deal, either a 9.3x62 or a 375, or would you say the overlap is small enough that I could justify both? Thank you again for your wisdom and guidance!
 
Well sir, personally, I feel they are pretty close together. For us Americans, the 35 Whelen will do it all.....the 9.3x62 will also, but only for nostalgic reasons...the 375 H&H is very useful, but still nostalgic. The 9.3x62 will shoot pretty flat with a 250gr bullet, the 375 will be a tad flatter with either a 260-270, and the 35 Whelen with a 200gr will run as fast as both, maybe faster. In the 300gr, the Whelen may not stabilize it in its most popular twist rate of 1 in 16", but can still get close to or at 2400fps. The 9.3x62 will run around 2200 or so and the 375 can be handloaded up around 2500, but most factory loads go about 2400. A 300winmah factory load in 180 is almost always about 2950 or so. Handloaded it can do close to 3100fps. But you don't like recoil you said. My 22" 35 Whelen AI ( again, a 24" standard Whelen can match it) runs 2950 with a 200 TTSX, 2600 with any 250 and a solid 2400fps with the Woodleigh 310. But you don't handload. So, from sheer availability in factory loads, you have a greater selection in the .375 H&H. There a few 9.3x62 choices now and the 35 Whelen has a couple. I have had a .416 Rigby, a .416 Remington, and a .416 Taylor ( 458 case necked down to 416) Only the Rigby in the big CZ 550 was a "push", The other two were neck snappers, ha! The worst of them all was a 416 Weatherby Mark V a guy let me shoot "one time". OMG, brutal. You will have to spend a lot of money to get any 416 that is "shootable"...and you still may not like it as "you don't like recoil", you said. It also only takes a few sessions with a painful rifle to develop a bad "flinch", and ruin you for a lot of shooting. Not worth it to me, so I use muzzlebrakes/good recoil pads. You have to consider the whole package. Good luck to you Pard!
 
RevJim said:
Well sir, personally, I feel they are pretty close together. For us Americans, the 35 Whelen will do it all.....the 9.3x62 will also, but only for nostalgic reasons...the 375 H&H is very useful, but still nostalgic. The 9.3x62 will shoot pretty flat with a 250gr bullet, the 375 will be a tad flatter with either a 260-270, and the 35 Whelen with a 200gr will run as fast as both, maybe faster. In the 300gr, the Whelen may not stabilize it in its most popular twist rate of 1 in 16", but can still get close to or at 2400fps. The 9.3x62 will run around 2200 or so and the 375 can be handloaded up around 2500, but most factory loads go about 2400. A 300winmah factory load in 180 is almost always about 2950 or so. Handloaded it can do close to 3100fps. But you don't like recoil you said. My 22" 35 Whelen AI ( again, a 24" standard Whelen can match it) runs 2950 with a 200 TTSX, 2600 with any 250 and a solid 2400fps with the Woodleigh 310. But you don't handload. So, from sheer availability in factory loads, you have a greater selection in the .375 H&H. There a few 9.3x62 choices now and the 35 Whelen has a couple. I have had a .416 Rigby, a .416 Remington, and a .416 Taylor ( 458 case necked down to 416) Only the Rigby in the big CZ 550 was a "push", The other two were neck snappers, ha! The worst of them all was a 416 Weatherby Mark V a guy let me shoot "one time". OMG, brutal. You will have to spend a lot of money to get any 416 that is "shootable"...and you still may not like it as "you don't like recoil", you said. It also only takes a few sessions with a painful rifle to develop a bad "flinch", and ruin you for a lot of shooting. Not worth it to me, so I use muzzlebrakes/good recoil pads. You have to consider the whole package. Good luck to you Pard!
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That was an awesome run down and your right, everything you said was right on the money. I did go ahead and look into the 35 Whelen as you suggested but everyone said it had less power than the 9.3x62. However it seems like it might go a bit faster as well, so while there is less power, there is faster "on target" time as well as perhaps better penetration. I think I've talked myself around a bush but the 375, if it comes at all, will have to come later and I thank all of you for your input! Now I just need to decide between the 35 W and the 9.3. Seems like bullet selection is better for the 35W, but that's mostly online because in these parts nobody shoots either.
Anyway thank you all again, you really have all helped out a ton!
 
i fell into the 9.3 fan club years ago. There are decent practice/deer/elk/plains game bullets available from Hornady, Speer, Lapua. And great premium bullets from Nosler, Barnes and Woodeigh. How many bullets do you need?

Like I mentioned earlier my friend had his suitcase with ammo diverted for four days. The local gun store in Hoedspruit, South Africa had 9.3x62. I believe he mentioned they also had .30-06, .308, 8mm Mauser and .375. If you fly into some town in Wyoming you might be more likely to find .35 Whelen.

I have three 9.3 rifles and they're all lighter than my .375 and kick less. You won't notice any of them going off when there's hair under the crosshairs. If you're recoil sensitive you won't like the .416 (or .458) rifles. Mine doesn't hurt to shoot but you do get a good shove.

This thread just cost me some money as I took the .416 to the range today and fired twenty rounds sighting it in with the Leupold scope I put on it last fall. Then i ran into town and picked up a pound of biltong for me and the missus. Next thing you know I'll be booking a hunt for buffalo... :D
 
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h^&hhunter,

can you give a reference for the whelen bedding method for the model 70. i'm guessing the three pressure points are at the three action screws, but i'd like to know for sure. the barrel screw could be another pressure point.

thx,

murf
 
Do you mean the Winchester bedding method? My M70 came with this grey "putty" like substance in the area where the two recoil lugs fit into the stock. The problem is, the stuff never hardened correctly so the whole thing shifted under recoil as the recoil lug holes are enlarged to accept the bedding compound and the lug. Even with the two action screws tight the wood stock had enough flex and slop that it was causing shots to go just about anywhere other than where I was aiming.

Took the rifle to the local Smith and the confirmed the bad bed job from Winchester and then checked the crown. It too was not correct. So a proper bed job and a cleaned up crown has my rifle shooting very tight groups.
 
New2- You can find several makes of rifles in 9.3x62 on Gunbroker.com In fact, the other day I saw several Ruger #1 models in 9.3x62...which is also in the "nostalgia" area as the Ruger #1 really looks similar to the old Farquharson single shots used in Africa. A single shot is all you need for plains game anyhow. heck, the Old Timers took on elephant and such with muzzleloaders, then the "new" modern brass cased single became all the rage, ha. You can also find a few Remingtons and Ruger bolt guns in 35 Whelen. From your postings, I don't think you would be happy unless you got a 9.3x62, ha. It is a gem dandy round, its just not going to be easy to take 300yd plus shots....which is rare in most parts of Africa anyhow! That Ruger Mod 77 African I had in 9.3x62 was a really handsome rifle...if you like the Old World German influence, the CZ 550 Mannlicher is a classic! Scope it with a 1.5x5, a 2x7 or 2.5x8, "maybe" a 3x9 ( you don't want to bulk up the lines on this kind of rifle anyhow) and have a ball!
 
thx robert,

i had to rebed a "silly putty" bedded late 70's model 70 i bought for my son, so i know where you are coming from. i was interested in the col. townshend whelen reference to the three pressure points for bedding a pre-64 model 70 action.

murf
 
murf said:
h^&hhunter,

can you give a reference for the whelen bedding method for the model 70. i'm guessing the three pressure points are at the three action screws, but i'd like to know for sure. the barrel screw could be another pressure point.

thx,

murf
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The Whelen method included the two action screws front and rear, and he also believed in a pressure pad at the "dog knot" about half way down the fore end. It has been my observation that guys who took the time to bed their rifles back in the day tended to be riflemen and these rifles, if the bores are still good. Always tend to shoot well.
 
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