Pistol Nomenclature

Telemachus said:

I was wondering what you all thought the appropriate nomenclature for guns like the PLR 16, SP5K, or Vector. I'm thinking in general of guns that the BATF classifies as pistols, but don't really fit into this category because they are not fired with hands on top of each other.
Specifically:
- Pistols that shoot rifle cartridges.
- Pistols that use rifle or smg magazines.
- Pistols that are designed to be used with slings.

Basically pistols that were designed to either be full-auto submachine guns or shouldered pdws and have since had these features removed from them in order to comply with the NFA.

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Until fairly recently handguns were fired with one hand. Competition shooters started using 2 hands to improve recoil control. Just because you don't fire a gun with one hand over the other doesn't mean anything.

The reason some manufacturers started calling short barrel rifles a pistol was to get around the 16" barrel restrictions making it easy to purchase without incurring additional taxes and paperwork.

The ATF definition of a handgun is "any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."

It is this definition that the ATF has relied upon classify the weapons you mention as handguns instead of short barreled rifles. It is also the justification used to ban 5.45x39 7N6 ammunition from importation as "armor piercing handgun ammunition."

Beyond attempting to go around the current ban by reclassifying rifle caliber pistols as something other than "handguns," what is the purpose of trying to create a new designation?

If Google is the measure of a firearm type try "ar15 pistol" or "machine pistol " google doesn't really know how to define them any better than the media... maybe WE could call them "ammo wasters ", but once they hit 26" long they are no longer a pistol, the proper term is "other weapon" according to the batfe.

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I've mostly seen "rifle based pistol" or "rifle type pistol".

That category includes mare's leg lever guns, AR pistols, m1 carbine pistols, etc.

Telemachus said:

Those are some interesting ideas. Maybe double handgun would be a good term...

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But they aren't doubles, so...why?

These things aren't that much different in form factor from traditional handguns. Compare a Harper's Ferry flintlock pistol.



To this .223 pistol:



As far as I know when you want accuracy you shoot them with field positions like this:


But that doesn't mean you can't just straigh- arm them bullseye style, or hold them in any other handgun stance. They require a bit more wrist strength than a model 29 but not that much more.

Until fairly recently handguns were fired with one hand. Competition shooters started using two hands

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Conventional Bullseye competition is still fired "one hand, unsupported".
Caliber/cartridge is unimportant when determining if a firearm is a pistol. Stock design and barrel length are the benchmarks...stock design more than barrel length. The Thompson Contender is a good example; pistols and rifles use the same receiver and can mount the same barrels.....the big difference is the stock. The pistol stock is designed so that the gun can be held, aimed and fired with either one or two hands. A handgun....a pistol.

But that doesn't mean you can't just straigh- arm them bullseye style, or hold them in any other handgun stance. They require a bit more wrist strength than a model 29 but not that much more.

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The two are not terribly different in weight. A loaded Contender with a ten inch barrel actually weighs about the same as a loaded model 29 with a six inch barrel.....depending on the cartridge. With equal length barrels, the model 29 actually weighs more when loaded,

I was wondering what you all thought the appropriate nomenclature for guns like the PLR 16, SP5K, or Vector.

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Pistol, Handgun, or (if it uses a cylinder) Revolver.
Not sure why a new name is needed, simply because a particular pistol's action was originally used in long gun form.
And, as has been mentioned several times, how many hands you use doesn't define anything.

It's loose but, if someone asked me to define a "pistol", I'd ask to be permitted to define "handgun" instead, and would go with something along the lines of:

A firearm lacking a shoulder stock, and designed with the concept that the shooter will typically fire it with one hand, or with both hands on the same part of the gun, notwithstanding how the shooter actually does fire it.

That would be a "general" definition that would certainly cover it for a "non-gunner" simply asking me. A BATFE definition would certainly add one or more qualities.

Maybe, if you simply want a way to which you can refer to those types you're discussing, the term "less-conventional handgun" would work?

That "silhouette" field position is not so great for pistols like the PLR-16 because of the AK-like gas vents behind the front sight.

I call them neutered rifles, because that is what they are. They only exist because of NFA laws. They are a (pretty useless) way for people to try to replicate the SBR experience without a tax stamp.

Glad no one is taking the bait and labeling it incorrectly like they do modern sporting rifles.




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wally said:

That "silhouette" field position is not so great for pistols like the PLR-16 because of the AK-like gas vents behind the front sight. ....

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If you think Creedmore with a plr-16 is bad...



They make blast shields that strap to your leg.

In old-timey nomenclature, a pistol was a handgun in which the firing chamber was an integral part of the barrel. Therefore, a revolver was NOT a pistol. This distinction was only observed by very technical writers and pedants, but it explains the title of W.H.B. Smith's classic book, "The Encyclopedia of Pistols and Revolvers". Despite being written in the late 1940's, it was still a very useful reference when I began collecting guns about 35 years ago.

On the other hand, British writers, who began losing hands-on familiarity with handguns over 100 years ago, tend to refer to any kind of repeating pistol, including automatics, as "revolvers".

Monac said:

In old-timey nomenclature, a pistol was a handgun in which the firing chamber was an integral part of the barrel. Therefore, a revolver was NOT a pistol. This distinction was only observed by very technical writers and pedants, but it explains the title of W.H.B. Smith's classic book, "The Encyclopedia of Pistols and Revolvers".....................

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Don't know where you get the old-timey nomenclature or only observed by very technical folks. That is the current ATF defination.

Surprised more here don't do the automatic corrections like they do no magazine/clip, etc.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...on-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol

The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and
a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-revolver

The term “Revolver” means a projectile weapon of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

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I get that because I am out of touch, Acera, and also I don't read threads thoroughly. Well, it used to be a distinction that very few people knew about. Thanks!

I have chosen to simply stick with the terms pistol and revolver. I could reiterate the downsides to certain arms as others have done already, but I'm not doing that tonight. I will simply say that if you begin to distinguish them into groups inside of our community, you are asking for those distinguishing points to come under scrutiny by lawmakers at some point in the future. I fail to find good reason for the things, but I also fail to find reason to distinguish one from the other.

Hand-rifle. I kind of think of my 5.5" .45 Blackhawk like that - it is surprisingly accurate at 50 yards and beyond, and with DoubleTap/Buffolo Bore loads, it is sending a big and fast chunk of lead out there.

If a Henry lever action chambered in .357 is a pistol caliber rifle, then a Keltec PLR-16 is a rifle caliber pistol.

Handguns like the Contender, Competitor, Dominator, Lone Eagle and XP100 are typically called "specialty pistols". I don't know what you'd call an AR or AK pistol other than AR or AK pistol.

In old-timey nomenclature, a pistol was a handgun in which the firing chamber was an integral part of the barrel. Therefore, a revolver was NOT a pistol.

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And yet Sam Colt marketed his wares as "revolving pistols".

The term "revolver" does not necessarily denote a handgun. Colt's first guns were revolving rifles and shotguns. I don't know exactly what Elisha Collier called his revolving flintlock pistol, let alone those that preceded it.

I usually just think of them as rifle caliber handguns. Similar to pcc or pistol caliber carbine.