Why even have a safe at all? Or just carry insurance?

I'm guessing a lot of people on this forum are running both a safe and insurance. Firearms for a lot people (especially on this forum) are worth more then their price tag. More times then none a gun as a story/sentimental value behind it then just a price tag.


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You might have kids in the house .
You can control the humidity they are stored in better .
It might save your gun in the event of a fire .
You can keep important papers there ( ex: away from a house cleaner ) .
If you also have a house alarm the police might get there before they can open it , preventing the grab and go .
Keeps your teenagers friend from taking it when he leaves while you are at work .

orpington

I have several safes (as well as a rider on my homeowners insurance policy), as the best means currently available for protecting my guns. The safes are all firmly bolted to the wall and floor base and aren't going anywhere. While someone may be able to break into the safes, it's definitely going to take them some time to do so and hopefully the police will be there before they start to cart them away (our home has a security system that is very fast and effective at notifying the police).

The safes also provide some measure of a controlled environment by eliminating much of the humidity in the air.

Most guns that are taken from street criminals and gangbangers are stolen from private residences, at least that's what I'm told, and that seems logical to me. I have an alarm system and a safe because I think it's the best way to keep my guns from being stolen, though I realize nothing is 100 percent. I have a watchful neighbor, too. There isn't much that goes on in my neighborhood that she misses.

Safes provide a barrier. A bud of mine, a burglar got inside the house and proceeded to fill up pillow cases with whatever he could grab. He looked for the key to the safe and did not find it. The burglar was not in the house for long and got out quickly.


Everything made by man can be unmade by man. Pharaohs built huge stone pyramids, massive structures, and yet with patience and time, they were breached. If the burglar has enough time, tools, and the pay off is large enough, they will get inside your safe.

Almost begs the observation that really should have 3 things:
- Safe
- intrusion detection/alarm system w/remote monitoring
- insurance

Alas, an alarm system even with monitoring is not going to be very helpful
if you are in a location (such as rural) where LEO response time is measured with an hour-glass.

Safe story for you folks:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/lorne-gunter-canadas-laws-on-the-safe-storage-of-firearms-need-clarifying

"...thieves worked to open the 770 kilogram concrete and steel safe he had had installed in his north Toronto apartment. For nearly two days, burglars used sledgehammers and blowtorches to open the vault..."

BTW, after 11 years the story has a "happy" ending:

https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/comments/1yt5l0/charges_dropped_in_mike_hargreaves_unsafe_storage/

My safe keeps the grandkids out and will slow down a thief enough that I hope he tries an easier target. No guarantees. I.also.store other valuables and papers in them

orpington

A safe would be where a thief would focus his efforts. Having firearms hidden throughout the house might take more time to locate than opening and emptying a safe.

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That's why I have more than one safe, have them located in different places through out the house, and none of them are in plain view. Could be enough of a time consuming effort to slow down a would be burglar and make them decide to look elsewhere. Don't know if this is going to happen but it just might be worth a try.

The decision to invest in a safe was just that, invest in a safe. I looked at residential security containers as they are called and rated and looked at safes. My wife and I considered not just my guns but her jewelry collection as well as all our important documents as well. The empty weight was 1,500 Lbs and it is lagged to the concrete deck in my gun area. Door framing was removed to get the thing in the house but all in all things went well. I figure nobody is likely to drag it away without being noticed. This winter the gun room gets a rework to include a home brew sprinkler system. Additionally another safe will be added. While we have the dogs and a home security system the safes just add another layer of protection for valuables not limited to just guns. Somebody wants things they will work like heck to get them. Average police response around here is a few min or quicker. I am comfortable with what we have based on what I see as our needs.

Ron

My insurance only goes to $10,000. This would not cover even half of my stuff. To get more would require a serial # inventory to USAA. My safes are also fire resistant. Since most robberies are smash & grabs anyway, the hood rats that are doing them aren't equipped or knowledgeable enough to either crack a safe or take one- especially one of mine that's extremely heavy empty, let alone full. The price of my safes are inconsequential compared to the value of just some of the single items inside. In addition, I have a good alarm system and live next to a cop.

...how can one justify a safe if it does not serve its intended purpose?

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I think the question is, "What purpose is a safe intended to serve?"

Insurance pays the value of property after it is stolen. It doesn't "protect" the asset, it merely gives you money to buy something similar. My homeowner's policy provides adequate protection for the few guns I own so I don't carry gun insurance. I think most people can add a rider to their homeowners or renter's policy to cover their guns for a lot less than a specified loss policy. I have a rider for replacement cost coverage of my server farm (3 servers, 3 Tb data) and it costs less than $10 a year.

I have an Sears gun safe. It was the second cheapest safe they sold in 1988. It offers no fire protection. It only has two multi-pin locks. Someone determined to break in could get a crowbar out of my garage and in under an hour have opened it up enough to steal its contents. I don't expect my safe to survive a fire, civil unrest or a determined attacker with plenty of time. What I expect is to keep a "smash and grab" burglar from walking off with my guns (rather than the three laptops he/she would have to walk right by to get to the safe). And in that respect, the safe has served its purpose admirably for nearly 30 years.

The safe also keeps children away from my guns and that keeps my liability insurance costs down.

Most break ins are kick in the door grab what you can carry in a sack,pillow case. Professional burglars are not likely to visit a blue collar neighborhood . Plus burglars don't want to be caught in a home as it a adds the chance of being beaten or worse. I think that being caught in the house may also add additional charges.I'had people say "They'll take the safe and work on it later" ,both my safes are quite heavy (400 #+)if they can get them out they can have the contents.

I can move a 525lb safe by myself, and have done so many times, using a cheap Harbor Freight hand truck. It's even easier if you don't care about the walls, floors, or paint on the safe. My 750lb one takes two men and some pieces of pipe, or a couple dozen golf balls. My 1800lb one takes three men and a pallet jack. All are bolted down to the concrete slab.

NOTHING bars a criminal set on commiting a crime. The goal of preventive measures is to not make the criminal's life any easier than necessary when it comes to you and your family and possessions. Criminals tend to pick easier targets of opportunity.

But if a criminal is set on breaking into or stealing your car, you're NOT going to stop him. If he's set on breaking into your home and stealing you blind, likewise. He'll watch, wait, study, and pick his time and his means...then he'll do it.

Why get a safe? Among other reasons, not to make a criminal's life easy to get your stuff.

Your choice. As it should be.

Another way to look at it. A cheap security cabinet will stop the average smash and grab burglar. The best safe can be defeated by a pro. Insurance to cover an extensive collection is cost prohibitive for most. Alarm systems are useless in rural areas because of response time. They also can usually be defeated by a pro. Nothing is fool proof. Hard to be 100% safe from all threats.

My firearms insurance coverage is predicated on the fact that I have a safe and that it weighs more than 350lbs.

The flu vaccine doesn't prevent every strain of the flu, but a lot of people still decide to get one every year. Parachutes don't always open, but I would still prefer to have one if I jump out of a plane.

Not every burglar has the time or skill or tools or patience to break into a decent RSC, or even one of those cheap sheet metal boxes. It's a percentage game.

And that's not even considering fires...

Criminals who have skills to bypass burglar alarms and can either break a safe open or are prepared to remove it are of the "advanced" variety. They typically don't take risks without knowing for sure there is a high payout. The smash-and-grab -variety of criminal that comprise the overwhelming majority of these s---bags, on the other hand.....

Walkalong said:

I was broken into recently, and all they took was the TV and a shotgun I foolishly left out of the safe that week. That's all the reason in the world I need. I am not busy filling out forms, I still have my fathers old .22, my favorite pistol, ..... It's a modest collection, but it's still mine.

It's just not smart not to have some type of RSC or safe bolted down securely if you own guns. It keeps them safe from kids, it keeps them safe from the average burglar, it keeps the drunk BIL from shooting off his pinky toe or bagging grandma........all kinds of reasons to have something.

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Pretty much covers it. They went for the easy pickings. Even a simple, economical RSC is better than nothing at all. Better to lose a single shotgun and TV rather than an entire expensive collection. Even my wife agreed the investment in a safe was a small investment compared to what it houses.

Ron

Why worry about replacing the brakes on my car, I have insurance!

That was tongue in cheek, but think about it. My insurance may pay for part of the cost to replace my guns, but not all. Plus I want to do everything I reasonably can to prevent one of my guns being used in a crime.

Something else to think about. Insurance companies are looking for any excuse to cancel your policy or raise your rates. I've had one gun stolen that I simply left in my truck overnight. Not something I normally do, but I just did it the wrong night. It was a Glock worth $450 on the used market. My deductable is $500. I wouldn't have gotten a dime if I had filed a clam. Even if it had been worth $1,000 I'd have not filed a claim. I'd have gotten $500 after the deductable, my insurance folder would have gotten a red flag, my rates may well have gone up and I could have even had my policy canceled.

Weather related home owners insurance claims are rarely questioned. Fire and theft get serious investigation. Insurance companies have found that a large percentage are fraud. Those that are not fraud are mostly due to carelessness of the client.

BTW, my stolen gun was recovered about 1 month later in a neighboring county. It was in the possession of someone arrested for another crime. That was 3 years ago and I still don't have it back. They won't release it until after the trial and I have no idea how long that will take.

The purpose of a safe is only to buy time. There is no safe in the world that can't be opened given enough time and tools. The intent of a safe is to discourage casual thieves and accidental contact- grandkids, visitors, etc.
I am referring to what we call a gun safe, not the "lockers" made of sheet metal sold alongside the gun safes. Those are really only to deter kids from getting ahold of them, and that's not even a good idea, a determined teenager with a screwdriver can bust one of them open.

Most gun safes are actually Residential Security Containers. Not actually a "safe" at all, as compared to a jewelers or bankers safe. Those are rated by how long it takes to break into one given standard tools.

The vast majority of burglaries are smash and grab. In and out in a couple of minutes. They grab whatever is handy and bolt. A small safe like a pistol lockbox not secured would be gone. A big safe that is bolted down takes tools and advance planning to have a vehicle big enough to move it. Or tools sufficient to cut it open.

A safe thief will have advance planning and knows what you have. They will be the ones that take a safe or bust it open. They learn about what you have by information leaks that all of us have every day.

Your first line of defense is to take the basic precautions such as not leaving valuables where they can be seen from outside. Lock doors and windows and make sure they are kept locked at all times and you know where all the keys are.

Do not share information about what you have, what you collect, or what kind of income level you have. That includes social media and forums.

Make sure that casual visitors do not get to see valuables- the meter reader, the plumber, the contractor, the cable TV guy, etc. Also be aware of the family friends and acquaintances...your kids' friends, their parents, etc. and make sure that nobody casually talks about stuff.

You would be surprised how many burglaries start out with a couple kids bragging at a party about how some other kid's Dad has guns. Or the carpet cleaner's girlfriend relays gossip she heard to some of her less savory friends.

Thanks to the scourge of drugs, the addicts are trying to scrape up money for the next hit. Anything left in the open that can be grabbed fast is what they want.

Make your home look less like an easy target than the home up the block and they will usually leave you alone. Even simply locking doors and not leaving expensive toys in view goes a long way.

In 1995 I invested $1400 ($2200 in 2015 dollars) I could bearely afford into the best RSC I could get. Was $400 off MSRP on sale, too. Which was the only way I was going to afford a Liberty Presidential series RSC.

Now, I have been around to the security and lock folk in town, and had looked hard, quite hard at some used UL-rated safes before committing to the Liberty. The used safes offered more of everything but room for long arms (I really did not want to have to break 1903s out of their stocks to stow them securely.)

Why? Because I wsa raised to believe in belt-and-suspenders, and doing your best.

I made some under-authorized modifications to closet in the apartment I was in for that safe. But, I also got a specific rider for my stuff on my insurance, too. Becasue the world is an uncertain place.