My reply imbedded in your quoted message.
1stmarine
CMM,
The idea here has been to have the killing power of large bores with heavy grain with superior ballistics in the AR15.
CMM: Fair enough, and I'm all for as many commercial options and wildcats as possible. This is 'Murica baby! However, let's be fair about the situation, did you really design it because you truly couldn't find any cartridge that would do the job, or was it because you were trying to squeeze every last bit of the performance you wanted and wanted to challenge yourself in producing it?
I have quite a few calibers already but I wanted something in the smaller AR15 to improve trajectories and range/power of the beowolf but w/o sacrificing on a reliable killer no matter
what the situation. I could not find a caliber with the trajectory and power easy to own and reload w/o being expensive nor complicated. I mean aside from designing and testing a new
wildcat that it can be a fun project.
CMM: To clarify, I don't think I said that energy was the leading indicating factor, I simply asked, by what measure is the OP determining "most powerful" and I provided velocity and energy as examples of potential objective measures, because those measures are usually easy to ascertain since most ballistic calculators are out-of-the-box equip to produce those figures. Interesting the you mention momentum because momentum and kinetic energy have nearly identical properties when related to linear motion so, I guess I'd need more explanation on why momentum is the appropriate benchmark but kinetic energy is not.
I understand. I Iike what you did with the graphics because any values at the muzzle are meaningless and this way it really shows how things develop downrange.
Still I wanted to make clear about momentum that is what knocks things down and carries through with the added frontal section and whatever terminal design.
Kinetic energy is an indicator but futile. That is why power factor (momentum) has been introduced as a more meaningful way to understand power on a target.
CMM: I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. .223 can not only kill but also do so without destroying all the meat on anything from a squirrel to a deer. It can also target shoot out past 500 yards, be used for defense or combat against humans. I find that fairly versatile.
I agree the 223 is a very effective and handy round. But limited and not suitable for heavier game. 60-80gr specialty loads perform amazingly well often overlooked or misunderstood.
But once one gets to the 6mm the hunting assortment of bullets pretty much continues and expands where the 223 stops. Also easy to make options form 223 cases here.
I understand the 35 is perhaps too much even for deer but there are pretty suitable bullets and never heard of anyone complaining of plenty of killing potential, specially in small packages.
CMM: I don't doubt the killing power of a .358 Win, but I will challenge that it is far superior to the .308 Win. The .308 will kill anything that walks on land. Plenty of black and brown bears are killed with the .308. In fact plenty of documented kills of black bears with .300 AAC. Bullet construction, velocity, mass, sectional density, and shot placement are all going to be contributing factors to how much vital tissue damage occurs. Ultimately vital tissue damage is what kills.
The killing doesn't come from wounding potential only but good killing comes from inflicting massive shock and many times CNS disruption (short circuit the brain). That is what ethical hunters look for.
The 308w is an amazing killer with premium bullets like 180gr bonded for large game. It has taken large Grizly bears with one shot. I think the issue is when hunting with carbines and auto-loaders like 16" it looses some vital speed and also like the 30-06 is not ideal for brush hunting. Still substantial deflection when hitting vegetation and small branches. This is where the 35 and 375 calibers show a significant improvement also in broader more massive wounding although penetration might be similar. These larger calibers are considered by many true hunters due to their track record as fast killers. Even with the modest 35 Remington.
As far as the 300 whisper killing bears ...I guess poachers are also successful with inexpensive 22LR and 9mm. Following your line of though from the first paragraph, are people hunting with the whisper because they cannot
afford a more suitable round or for the challenge even at the risk of making an animal suffer unnecessarily? I am saying this because even a 357 magnum with premium hunting bullets is a popular, affordable yet more powerful round for that animal.
So, all of this wasn't meant to say the .308 is the most powerful cartridge available or that nobody needs anything more powerful than a .308. My point above, which I'll reiterate, is that if you need something more powerful than a .308. My original point it, outside of boutique cartridge aficionados, like yourself, it seems smart to just stick with what is more commonly available. If you are really in need of something the a .308 cannot accomplish, then really the AR-10 patterned rifle are not the best fit. They are already fairly heavy for caliber and packing more onto the platform seems like a square peg in a round hole.
I understand. I would recommend the 308 to many people but since the thread is about options with more power I started talking about other alternatives.
There is no doubt the 308 is an amazing meat producing machine but what I want to say is that all other things being equal, for extra power from moderate barrels the 358 gives more killing power
with little investment even using the same 308w brass as donor. Very simple to make and own. We are talking about proven fast killers no matter the situation, including brush country.
Regarding the AR15 and 35 caliber gunner idea...
With the Ar15 obvious limitations calibers above 7mm are not that efficient anymore until you get to the 35 caliber.
You have a lot of good hunting bullets in 30, 338 and 8mm but they are too long for the platform.
IMO the 35 and 375 are the two last calibers that provide heavy grain, with modest length on bullets yet still pretty decent ballistic performance.
After 35 and 375 ballistic performance drops substantially. I mean, you still have a limited selection
of heavy 416 and obviously 50 caliber but those are designed for larger super-magnum and military cases.
The good thing about the 458 and 50 BEO is the amazing killing potential at moderate ranges.
In short, the drivers for me has always been very clear:
-Simplicity - Full stack, common components, nothing expensive or exclusive.
-Versatility - Can use anything from 125gr pistol bullets to 220gr and even 250gr spitzer.
In a 16" carbine I have more killing power than the 308 from the same size barrel but in a lighter rifle. Also a better performer in short barrels and 10" pistols.
-Decent trajectories - Trajectories are pretty friendly unlike slower moving calibers and shotgun like ballistics. Still pretty adequate brush round. Another role where the 30 calibers come short.
-Lots of momentum and killing power - It puts lots of momentum at 300 yards with authority ahead of the others.
I also like the fact that is shooting great with 140gr-200gr fmj/tmj pistol bullets that make practice more economical than the 308. Can also hunt predators with those if I want.
Of course I could have gone with a WSM case but the added complexity vs. the gain difference didn't pay off.
Whatever the choices we always shave a trade off.