I really need some general understanding of stopping power in self defense

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So it seems to me, our friend will have as much problem getting a Benelli M2 as an AR-15. If I understand it correctly, those are both category B items in semi-auto.

In those circumstances it may well be that an AR-15 is a strong contender for the ideal long gun.

By the way, we can't have the FN SLP in the UK but we can have the Benelli M2 or M3, or even the Bora BR99. For target shooting only of course. This is mine:

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So it seems to me, our friend will have as much problem getting a Benelli M2 as an AR-15. If I understand it correctly, those are both category B items in semi-auto.

In those circumstances it may well be that an AR-15 is a strong contender for the ideal long gun.

By the way, we can't have the FN SLP in the UK but we can have the Benelli M2 or M3, or even the Bora BR99. For target shooting only of course. This is mine:

xOvblOL.jpg


qxW2JVg.jpg
Yep, I'll look into a lever action or double barreled probably.. The first time I see shotgun shells in a rifle magazine!
 
" ... but we can have the Benelli M2 or M3, or even the Bora BR99. For target shooting only of course. :) "

In California, the politicians are so scared of an effective armed populace that they made sure that shot-guns like that can't be had. I think it would be cool to have a Bora99, but it ain't goinna happen for me or Angrybird :(
 
I just wanted to second the thought of a double barrel BP to go along with your revolver. I have both and if I had to pick one it would be the shotgun. If you are using these in a residence or building I don't think you will be able to see anything(with all the smoke) after the first shot or maybe two with either the pistol or the shotgun. I would definitely come up with a good loading regiment to make sure the guns go boom every time. I would probably wax the caps on. Oh and get some form of a modern (smokeless) firearm as soon as posable. I think others have addressed this.
 
" ... but we can have the Benelli M2 or M3, or even the Bora BR99. For target shooting only of course. :) "

In California, the politicians are so scared of an effective armed populace that they made sure that shot-guns like that can't be had. I think it would be cool to have a Bora99, but it ain't goinna happen for me or Angrybird :(
Not at all or is it just complicated to get?
I just wanted to second the thought of a double barrel BP to go along with your revolver. I have both and if I had to pick one it would be the shotgun. If you are using these in a residence or building I don't think you will be able to see anything(with all the smoke) after the first shot or maybe two with either the pistol or the shotgun. I would definitely come up with a good loading regiment to make sure the guns go boom every time. I would probably wax the caps on. Oh and get some form of a modern (smokeless) firearm as soon as posable. I think others have addressed this.
That certainly is an argument, as @Mayvik recommended earlier. I was thinking about 6 vs 2 shots. Having both? Hmm it's an idea.
As I read it, the under-lever (or lever action) smooth bore shot-gun can be greater than 2+1 and be modern smokeless powder. I'd be on that in heart beat :)
Yes, it really seems interesting. Semi-auto, pump action or lever action, all need a lot of practice to be mastered in extreme stress.
 
The problem is, the extreme stress is difficult to emulate in training. That's why I suggest the semi-auto instead of pump or lever.
 
The problem is, the extreme stress is difficult to emulate in training. That's why I suggest the semi-auto instead of pump or lever.
As I'm a really rational and analytic person, I tend to prefer more shots and trust myself to keep a cool head in a stress situation. But it will probably be much easier when I will be able to test and get a feeling for the different guns at the shooting range.
 
RE: the BR99,

In California, center fire rifles with removable magazines and certain "features" like pistol grip and telescoping stocks are considered "assault weapons" and are either completely banned, or can only be registered as AW, and then only be used at approved ranges, and have controlled transport routing, and a bunch of other restrictions ...

Also, in that ban language, they included some shotguns with more than 5 round capability and "features":

It's not legal for a semi-auto shotgun to have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip or a vertical grip or a thumb-hole stock. [CA Penal Code 30515(a)(6)]

Since this one has a fixed butt stock, technically it should be OK ... But nobody I know wants to be a test case ... A Benelli is possible (because of tube magazine, non-detachable), but you have to be careful of the mods you do ...

Also because Calif Department of Justice (CA DoJ) is drafting and re-drafting regulations that implement the laws, we don't know what the final regs will say... So we are mostly in a wait and see space before spending ourselves into a felony :(
 
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My first choice is a 5 1/2" barrel Ruger Old Army. In self defense, remember, shot placement is everything. No single handgun bullet is guaranteed to stop an assailant 100% of the time. We had cases where people where shot with 12 GA 00 buck and still posed a threat. If you read Charles Henderson's book, Marine Sniper, there is an incident where Hathcock's 30-06 didn't stop his target; nor did the second 30-06 bullet. Only when Hathcock put a bullet into the head did he drop the target. Remember that is the rifle bullet the U.S. used during WW I, WW II and Korea.
 
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Hello,

I have a black powder revolver for home defense. Why such outdated technology? Because I live in France and that's the only thing I can legally have without having a shooting or hunting licence and having to register it. France is getting more and more insecure and I don't see why I should be a victim.

It is a Colt 1860 44 cal. copy which is not only a beautiful piece of art but also fires .454 cal. 140 gr. round lead balls at about 900 fps. I was hesitating a long time if a 1851 Navy 36 cal. that shoots a .375 cal. 80 gr. round lead ball at about 1000 fps is the better choice.

Do you think I made a good choice? What arguments would favor a 44 against a 36 and vice versa? I was thinking the smaller caliber was powerful enough and uses less black powder so it will create less smoke in my house, but the bigger caliber will eventually stop a madman better. But then I really just want to stop the aggressor, not make lasagna out of him. Is a 44 too much against an aggressor? (I mean in the civil war era they killed horses and bears with a 44).

While I understand my revolver really well and know how to handle it safely, I don't have any experience in firearms against living aggressors, nor is it a "normal" topic in France as it is in the US for example, so we are poorly (not at all) educated concerning self defense with firearms.

But ultimately I want to get my licence to be able to buy a double barreled shotgun for home defense, but in that case it would be way more powerful than my 44 revolver anyway right? (assault rifles, pumpguns and handguns are much more complicated to get, and at least one year waiting time etc.)

So you see my point: I'm afraid my 44 revolver is overkill to stop a home invader until police arrives. But then I saw videos of people getting shot and running around. Am I overestimating the power of my gun? What is exactly meant by stopping power? Killing? What would you have chosen in my case?

I would really appreciate opinions from people into this matter, maybe if you work in law enforcement or are dealing/have experience with such situations or just have really good knowledge? Thank you!

Given the limitations imposed upon the OP (black powder firearms), I think that he has done as well for himself as possible.
 
It would be 2+1. But I just realized underlever shotguns (and rifles) are in the same category, without a 2+1 shots restriction
The only problem there, is there are only two models to choose from in under lever, that is, lever action shotguns. Both Winchesters, the Model 1887 of Terminator fame, and the Model 1901, an improved, 10ga. version of the 1887. The 1887 has been copied by several firms and are available more than original guns.
Now if lever action rifles are legal with no round restriction, a Winchester Trapper in .44 Magnum (Canshoot .44 Special, too) would be a fine choice for a Home Defense gun.
 
To the OP.

Remember the nature of black powder....it is a bit open to the world outside. And that powder can become well.....not what you want.

Now I did not read all the posts and if this is covered sorry....but I would reload that thing once a week, humidity will make it have issues....I read where people would unload and reload every morning back in the day....just to make sure if they needed the thing it would work.

Here is to the hope you never have to use it....you country...and from spain to greece and up to sweeden are in trouble. We have a vender in Stockholm and while we usually do email because of the time difference, I go go to work at 5am my time and that is about the time he is going home.....he has some stories how there are places in his city that are really no go zones....and he means NO GO...they know about places here in the states like Detroit and Chicago, but this he says is much worse....and he thought 20 people get killed in those cities every day.

I hope our guberments see the error of their ways in some policies....I think my lifetime may see a tipping point.
 
This is a question I briefly considered when I was too young to purchase a modern handgun. If I were limited to a blackpowder handgun today I would stick with the .44 and find the most comfortable and accurate flat nose conical load for my revolver. It's probably more effective for anti personnel than 9mm nato or .380 fmj that many people rely on to protect themselves routinely.
 
Hello,

I have a black powder revolver for home defense. Why such outdated technology? Because I live in France and that's the only thing I can legally have without having a shooting or hunting licence and having to register it. France is getting more and more insecure and I don't see why I should be a victim.

It is a Colt 1860 44 cal. copy which is not only a beautiful piece of art but also fires .454 cal. 140 gr. round lead balls at about 900 fps. I was hesitating a long time if a 1851 Navy 36 cal. that shoots a .375 cal. 80 gr. round lead ball at about 1000 fps is the better choice.

Do you think I made a good choice? What arguments would favor a 44 against a 36 and vice versa? I was thinking the smaller caliber was powerful enough and uses less black powder so it will create less smoke in my house, but the bigger caliber will eventually stop a madman better. But then I really just want to stop the aggressor, not make lasagna out of him. Is a 44 too much against an aggressor? (I mean in the civil war era they killed horses and bears with a 44).

While I understand my revolver really well and know how to handle it safely, I don't have any experience in firearms against living aggressors, nor is it a "normal" topic in France as it is in the US for example, so we are poorly (not at all) educated concerning self defense with firearms.

But ultimately I want to get my licence to be able to buy a double barreled shotgun for home defense, but in that case it would be way more powerful than my 44 revolver anyway right? (assault rifles, pumpguns and handguns are much more complicated to get, and at least one year waiting time etc.)

So you see my point: I'm afraid my 44 revolver is overkill to stop a home invader until police arrives. But then I saw videos of people getting shot and running around. Am I overestimating the power of my gun? What is exactly meant by stopping power? Killing? What would you have chosen in my case?

I would really appreciate opinions from people into this matter, maybe if you work in law enforcement or are dealing/have experience with such situations or just have really good knowledge? Thank you!
The Magazine I sometimes write for (the Backwoodsman) had an article on Black Powder stopping power. I don't think they've got it posted on line yet, so on my next day off I'll make a PDF of the article and somehow get it to you. His actual test results are most interesting
 
Black powder pushing a fat lead ball is no less lethal than it used to be. Dont forget, black powder guns were in service far longer than our cartridge guns have.

This is the truth

Wild Bill Hickok carried 36 caliber revolvers.
Lots of people were killed in the Civil War with black powder handguns.

I would personally pick a double barrel shotgun. Simple to use. Open insert shells close and fire. Good fight stoppers.
 
Hello,

I have a black powder revolver for home defense. Why such outdated technology? Because I live in France and that's the only thing I can legally have without having a shooting or hunting licence and having to register it. France is getting more and more insecure and I don't see why I should be a victim.

It is a Colt 1860 44 cal. copy which is not only a beautiful piece of art but also fires .454 cal. 140 gr. round lead balls at about 900 fps. I was hesitating a long time if a 1851 Navy 36 cal. that shoots a .375 cal. 80 gr. round lead ball at about 1000 fps is the better choice.

Do you think I made a good choice? What arguments would favor a 44 against a 36 and vice versa? I was thinking the smaller caliber was powerful enough and uses less black powder so it will create less smoke in my house, but the bigger caliber will eventually stop a madman better. But then I really just want to stop the aggressor, not make lasagna out of him. Is a 44 too much against an aggressor? (I mean in the civil war era they killed horses and bears with a 44).

While I understand my revolver really well and know how to handle it safely, I don't have any experience in firearms against living aggressors, nor is it a "normal" topic in France as it is in the US for example, so we are poorly (not at all) educated concerning self defense with firearms.

But ultimately I want to get my licence to be able to buy a double barreled shotgun for home defense, but in that case it would be way more powerful than my 44 revolver anyway right? (assault rifles, pumpguns and handguns are much more complicated to get, and at least one year waiting time etc.)

So you see my point: I'm afraid my 44 revolver is overkill to stop a home invader until police arrives. But then I saw videos of people getting shot and running around. Am I overestimating the power of my gun? What is exactly meant by stopping power? Killing? What would you have chosen in my case?

I would really appreciate opinions from people into this matter, maybe if you work in law enforcement or are dealing/have experience with such situations or just have really good knowledge? Thank you!

Yes the .44 cap-n-ball is a good choice. 2 million Yankee soldiers can't all be wrong! May I suggest, being a Texican myself, TWO of those revolvers. See they are a might slow to reload. I think you need to watch the show, "The Outlaw Josey Wales" with Clint Eastwood. He had the right idea with cap-n-ball revolvers.

As for stopping power. That is the ability of the weapon to stop all aggression with one solid torso hit. No hand held firearm, short of a 10 gauge 3 1/2 magnum shotgun, has that ability to do that 100 percent of the time. BUT, some do TEND to do better in percentage.

Bigger bullets TEND to stop better. Faster bullets TEND to stop better. Bullets with better construction (say hollowpoints) TEND to stop better. Bullets placed in better locations (COM, that is center of mass, CNS, that is central nervous system, heart shots, etc.) TEND to stop better.

And yes, real big bullets, moving fast, with excellent construction and placed right in the heart/lung area do the best.

Your .44s will serve you well IF you train often!

Deaf
 
The 44 will do. You have a different problem. Your chance to reload will be
difficult, at best. In the event you only have one chance, and the unexpected thing
happens:
1. How often do you get to practice, at self-defense distances?
2. How accurate are you, shooting single handed?
2. How well do you shoot, left handed?
 
Hello,

I have a black powder revolver for home defense. Why such outdated technology? Because I live in France and that's the only thing I can legally have without having a shooting or hunting licence and having to register it. France is getting more and more insecure and I don't see why I should be a victim.

It is a Colt 1860 44 cal. copy which is not only a beautiful piece of art but also fires .454 cal. 140 gr. round lead balls at about 900 fps. I was hesitating a long time if a 1851 Navy 36 cal. that shoots a .375 cal. 80 gr. round lead ball at about 1000 fps is the better choice.

Do you think I made a good choice? What arguments would favor a 44 against a 36 and vice versa? I was thinking the smaller caliber was powerful enough and uses less black powder so it will create less smoke in my house, but the bigger caliber will eventually stop a madman better. But then I really just want to stop the aggressor, not make lasagna out of him. Is a 44 too much against an aggressor? (I mean in the civil war era they killed horses and bears with a 44).

While I understand my revolver really well and know how to handle it safely, I don't have any experience in firearms against living aggressors, nor is it a "normal" topic in France as it is in the US for example, so we are poorly (not at all) educated concerning self defense with firearms.

But ultimately I want to get my licence to be able to buy a double barreled shotgun for home defense, but in that case it would be way more powerful than my 44 revolver anyway right? (assault rifles, pumpguns and handguns are much more complicated to get, and at least one year waiting time etc.)

So you see my point: I'm afraid my 44 revolver is overkill to stop a home invader until police arrives. But then I saw videos of people getting shot and running around. Am I overestimating the power of my gun? What is exactly meant by stopping power? Killing? What would you have chosen in my case?

I would really appreciate opinions from people into this matter, maybe if you work in law enforcement or are dealing/have experience with such situations or just have really good knowledge? Thank you!

I didn't realize you could have those there. In all honesty, you're in pretty good shape. Besides filling your house with a smoke screen, there's really not much disadvantage. Those revolvers put plenty of people six feet under in their time, and they're no less lethal today. Reloads are rare in actual self defense shootings, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. You're at a slight disadvantage since it's single action, but practice can help maximize your effectiveness with it.
 
Hello,

So you see my point: I'm afraid my 44 revolver is overkill to stop a home invader until police arrives. But then I saw videos of people getting shot and running around. Am I overestimating the power of my gun? What is exactly meant by stopping power? Killing?

I would really appreciate opinions from people into this matter, maybe if you work in law enforcement or are dealing/have experience with such situations or just have really good knowledge? Thank you!

A huge misconception is shooting a person/being shot is like the movies where they fly back and fall and crawl around and die some beautiful death. You don't actually see the "stopping power." It's what a bunch of old timers in the day would refer to what is currently now known as hydrostatic shock. Mass x velocity. Would you rather be hit by a small car doing 120mph or a freight truck going 60? Here's an decent article on terminal ballistics. It doesnt exactly answer your questions, but its a good read for some understanding on all that goes into "stopping power"
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
 
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It is a Colt 1860 44 cal. copy which is not only a beautiful piece of art but also fires .454 cal. 140 gr. round lead balls at about 900 fps

I think you made a fine choice. A 44 blackpowder pistol is accurate and powerful. The wounds they can cause are much worse than what modern people expect. I have seen a number of material, mostly ballistic tests, where the round ball causes a larger wound channel than many FMJ's. This page has a few tests in ballistic gelatin.

Gun Review: Classic cap and ball revolver calibers get the ballistic gel test

http://www.guns.com/review/gun-revi...revolver-calibers-get-the-ballistic-gel-test/

Blackpowder service rifles did in fact cause worse wounds than the "modern" service cartridges of WW1. I have Captain Louis A. LaGarde's book on Wound Ballistics, and he claims that the small arms of the American Civil War caused worse wounds than the rifles of his period, which was around 1914. This is more or less confirmed in this paper:

Wound Ballistics: Minié Ball vs. Full MetalJacketed Bullets—A Comparison of Civil War and
Spanish-American War Firearms
http://militarymedicine.amsus.org/doi/pdf/10.7205/MILMED-D-02-2307

The velocity you get will depend on a number of things, the powder, the cap, and other things I don't understand. :( These are the velocities I got out of a Colt 3rd Model Dragoon, which were not that impressive. The only "good" velocity was with Pydrodex and it was only one shot. Blackpowder guns blow so much residue out the barrel that my chronograph was unable to register, I did not have the time to move the chronograph out, so one shot velocity is all I got.


Code:
Colt 3rd Model Dragoon         

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG RWS cap      
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F      
 90 ° F at 930 !      
 
Ave Vel = 785     
Std Dev = 30     
ES = 73     
Low = 741     
High = 814      
N = 4      
     

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG CCI#11 cap      
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F      

Ave Vel = 837    
Std Dev = 18    
ES = 56    
Low = 814    
High = 870    
N = 8    

 
142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured Pyrodex Rem #1 cap      
 24 July 1999 T= 99 - 100 ° F      

Ave Vel = 920     
Std Dev = 0      
ES = 0     
Low = 920     
High = 920      
N = 1      
too many solids in air  caused chronograph to malfunction.

Some things to consider. You must take the pistol out and shoot it, shoot it on paper and see where it is sighted. I have found that most blackpowder guns are indifferently sighted. I do not think the average black powder shooter is interested in hitting anything, or guns from the factory would not have the front sight offset to the one o'clock position. These old pistols have short front sights and shoot feet high at 25 yards. Often they shoot feet to the left or right. My Uberti M1858, the front sight was made tall, and I filed it down so it shot to point of aim, and it was drift adjustable. My Uberti M1858 Remington shoots to point of aim. Pictures attached of six shots at 8 yards, and a 25 yard group that I made with my Remington. these are offhand groups, and that makes a huge difference in point of impact. Pistols shot off a sand bag rest will often print to a different location. Adjust the sights as you will shoot. Now, this pistol is acceptable for a self defense weapon. My Colt, while I was able to have a tall brass front sight put into the barrel notch, it shoots about a foot or two left at 25 yards. I consider that unacceptable.

Something else about shooting a Colt is that you must learn to flip the pistol as you cock it to clear the cap. With the Colt design, fired caps have the nasty habit of falling between the hammer and the frame. Flipping the pistol as you cock will often toss the cap clear. I have not had this problem with the 1858 Remington.

I used OxYoke wads between the ball and the powder. http://www.rmcoxyoke.com/wads These have worked better, and are cleaner, than any other technique I used to keep the powder fouling moist and clean. Years ago I melted candle wax around the caps/nipples and the front of the balls of a loaded blackpowder revolver. That kept the moisture out for years, as all cylinders fired.
 

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