Browning Hi Power, Discontinued

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ttarp said:
...... but it seems to me 9mm didn't really start gaining popularity till the block 17 came along....
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If you are talking about the domestic market, S&W came out with the models 39 and 59 decades ago, and kept up a steady progression of all steel 9mm pistols which were quite popular. The CZ-75 had a healthy following early on. Then there were the other imports like the Star BK and BKM, Llama 1911 clones etc. Perhaps in shooting literature the .45/1911 was more in the limelight because of the IPSC matches etc, but most people I knew going back to the 1970s through the 1990s were a pretty good mix of revolver fans in .38 and .357 on up, and .380, 9mm and 1911 .45 pistols.

In Europe and elsewhere in the world the 9mm in 9x19 form has dominated the military and civilian police inventories for about 40 years or more following WW2. Often in the form of the FN Hi-Power and Spanish 1911 clones. It still does to a significant extent.
 
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I'll return to the idea of the BHPs durability that was raised. The Hi-Power makes a very good personal defense and military sidearm. It's done both for a long time. Where it did not do as well was in competition. The BHP is a light weight gun. Meaning it's sleek and lightweight for a gun in it's class. These are things that have made it useful in personal use and in the military. When FN decided to chamber it in 40 S&W they had to move from a forged frame to a slightly beefier cast frame. This was carried over to the 9mm as well.

If you shoot 400 rounds a month through your BHP you're good to go for a long time with routine maintenance. If you shoot 400 or more a week through the gun, it will tend to shoot loose and require more upkeep and parts replacement than other guns of it's class.

For more on this I encourage folks to read the following...

The first is a piece of an article from M. Ayoob from Feb. 2004 which is mostly an interview with Bill Laughridge You can see that here:

https://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

The second is from Stephen Camp, from his website dedicated to the Hi-Power:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi Power Longevity.htm
 
The first article addresses issues found mostly on early production guns - by the time it was written (2004) the Mk.III Hi-Power was already 15 years into production. For example, the cast (later on - MIM) parts of the firing mechanism in today's guns are quite hard actually.
Any, and I do mean any, guns that are used extensively with 9mm NATO, or +P ammo will have a shorter lifespan. And that's a simple fact. Some will deal with it better then others, but they will shot loose earlier compared to guns used with standard pressure ammo.
On one of our local shooting ranges we had a couple of rental gen. 2 Glocks (17 and 19) with cracked slides - just bellow the rear side of the ejection port. Those guns were used only with 115/124 grains of standard pressure FMJ. Should we say Glock sucks, don't use +P ammo in it? Of course not - stuff like that happens when you put thousands upon thousands of rounds thru a gun.

Yes, the Hi-Power is not the best and toughest uber-pistol out there, but this: "...even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs." Com'on now - do you really believe that? Sure, the BHP is not as tough as a Sig P226, but it's not a "Saturday night special" either.
 
tipoc said:
I'll return to the idea of the BHPs durability that was raised. The Hi-Power makes a very good personal defense and military sidearm. It's done both for a long time. Where it did not do as well was in competition. The BHP is a light weight gun. Meaning it's sleek and lightweight for a gun in it's class. These are things that have made it useful in personal use and in the military. When FN decided to chamber it in 40 S&W they had to move from a forged frame to a slightly beefier cast frame. This was carried over to the 9mm as well.

If you shoot 400 rounds a month through your BHP you're good to go for a long time with routine maintenance. If you shoot 400 or more a week through the gun, it will tend to shoot loose and require more upkeep and parts replacement than other guns of it's class.

For more on this I encourage folks to read the following...

The first is a piece of an article from M. Ayoob from Feb. 2004 which is mostly an interview with Bill Laughridge You can see that here:

https://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

The second is from Stephen Camp, from his website dedicated to the Hi-Power:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi Power Longevity.htm
Click to expand...
Steven Camp has done a lot of research on Hi-Powers. Not met him, but very personable guy to converse with online.
 
Mizar said:
The first article addresses issues found mostly on early production guns - by the time it was written (2004) the Mk.III Hi-Power was already 15 years into production. For example, the cast (later on - MIM) parts of the firing mechanism in today's guns are quite hard actually.
Any, and I do mean any, guns that are used extensively with 9mm NATO, or +P ammo will have a shorter lifespan. And that's a simple fact. Some will deal with it better then others, but they will shot loose earlier compared to guns used with standard pressure ammo.
On one of our local shooting ranges we had a couple of rental gen. 2 Glocks (17 and 19) with cracked slides - just bellow the rear side of the ejection port. Those guns were used only with 115/124 grains of standard pressure FMJ. Should we say Glock sucks, don't use +P ammo in it? Of course not - stuff like that happens when you put thousands upon thousands of rounds thru a gun.

Yes, the Hi-Power is not the best and toughest uber-pistol out there, but this: "...even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs." Com'on now - do you really believe that? Sure, the BHP is not as tough as a Sig P226, but it's not a "Saturday night special" either.
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I think it should be remembered too that in the military context - and most foreign police agencies - handguns for initial qualifications at basic and speciality training bases, special forces etc are the only ones that get hammered. Whereas those issued and carried at duty stations do not get fired nearly as much, hence many mil surps and foreign police surplus guns are often very little used and have more cosmetic wear than anything else.

On the other hand here in this country we have a competitive category where most all handguns get hammered according to the size of the competitors' wallets and purses. Handguns like the Hi-Power and older Colt revolvers were never designed for this kind of usage. The only parallel in the military context is special forces, and they just live with the attrition rates in parts and replacement guns. The same could be said of rifles.
 
RPZ said:
...If you are talking about the domestic market, S&W came out with the models 39 and 59 decades ago, and kept up a steady progression of all steel 9mm pistols which were quite popular. The CZ-75 had a healthy following early on. Then there were the other imports like the Star BK and BKM, Llama 1911 clones etc.
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None of those weapons, except for the S&W 2nd Gen semi-autos, ever had much of a following here in the U.S. and only SOME of the S&W models were all-steel, and not all of them were double-stackl. Quite a few of them were alloy-framed guns. Their popularity remains high among a smaller group of shooters, but LEO usage seemed to dwindle with the introduction of the Glock line.

CZs weren't even AVAILABLE in the U.S. until the late 90's thanks to the West's embargo of Communist Block product. You could get a CZ in Canada, and if you were lucky/unlucky enough to be a G.I. stationed in West Germany you could get them through the Base or Post Exchanges. It's only been in the last 7-8 years that CZ has really started to make itself known in the U.S. market. And now they seem to be moving in the polymer/striker-fired direction with the P10c.

Star and Llama were always niche guns, at best. (I've had several of both liked them all. I had sevearl of the later Star Firestar and Firestar Plus models, too, and really liked the Firestar Plus compacts.

The Llamas I owned were Stoeger imported guns, and Stoeger seemed to really pay attention to quality control. Later ones were often a crap-shoot. I still have a 9mm 1911 Llama, and it's a great gun.)

The BHP never seemed to catch on in the U.S., and at least part of that was probably due to the fact that they were "pricey" and Browning didn't seem to know how to market/sell handguns. FNH seems to be trying to get back into the game with the FNS and FN-509 lines.... even courting after-market vendors for supporting parts and kits.

(Stephen Camp, by the way, WAS a marvelous guy, but he's been dead for several years now. You can still get his books. He IS missed.)
 
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Prior to the Glocks the S&W 9s were very much the only game in town. And many were sceptical of Glocks initially and stuck with their steel or alloy framed Smiths etc. Most of the PO types and enthusiasts I was around in the 70s and 80s either preferred .357 revolvers or 9mm Smiths, with some 1911 fans thrown in. Then there were the few who liked Colt Pythons, Troopers, HK P7s etc.
 
Word back from Browning is last shipment was received in March, no more available, production has ceased, equipment worn out.
Denis
 
DPris said:
Word back from Browning is last shipment was received in March, no more available, production has ceased, equipment worn out.
Denis
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Wow. Might be a good time to buy some spare parts as well.
 
DPris said:
Word back from Browning is last shipment was received in March, no more available, production has ceased, equipment worn out.
Denis
Click to expand...
So that is the 9mm line is done, too?
I need a few spare parts also!
 
Mizar said:
The first article addresses issues found mostly on early production guns - by the time it was written (2004) the Mk.III Hi-Power was already 15 years into production. For example, the cast (later on - MIM) parts of the firing mechanism in today's guns are quite hard actually.
Any, and I do mean any, guns that are used extensively with 9mm NATO, or +P ammo will have a shorter lifespan. And that's a simple fact. Some will deal with it better then others, but they will shot loose earlier compared to guns used with standard pressure ammo.
On one of our local shooting ranges we had a couple of rental gen. 2 Glocks (17 and 19) with cracked slides - just bellow the rear side of the ejection port. Those guns were used only with 115/124 grains of standard pressure FMJ. Should we say Glock sucks, don't use +P ammo in it? Of course not - stuff like that happens when you put thousands upon thousands of rounds thru a gun.

Yes, the Hi-Power is not the best and toughest uber-pistol out there, but this: "...even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs." Com'on now - do you really believe that? Sure, the BHP is not as tough as a Sig P226, but it's not a "Saturday night special" either.
Click to expand...

NATO spec ammo is not always what folks think it is. The BHP has run on NATO spec ammo from the inception of NATO.

A good deal of what Ayoob writes in his 10 year old article article is incorrect and hyperbolic. He damns with faint praise. He gets a number of things wrong, too many to go and strengthen out. This article has been the source for many mistaken ideas on the BHP over the years as Mas Ayoob is a prolific and respected gun writer.

"From Venezuela to Great Britain; I've seen quantities of broken Brownings in government arsenals whose slides and frames were cracked by the brutal hammering of 9xl9 NATO ammo. +P and +P+ loads also seem to be contraindicated. Listen to Bill Laughridge, who said to me, "Tell your readers in all caps, DON'T USE +P IN HI- POWERS! It's been my experience that even a few magazines of +P will upset the locking lugs."

(I'm not gonna ask how Mas Ayoob got access to government arsenals in Venezuela and Great Britain and points in between, I don't know him and I'll take his word for it. I don't figure that finding broken parts of guns, M-16s, Glocks, M9s, etc., in government arsenals, a place where guns are rebuilt, is all that odd though.)

Ayoob quotes Jeff Cooper on the BHP, the quote is that "the only problem with the gun is it'a caliber". Nothing about it's durability. I trust Cooper's opinion on this.

The Hi-Power, as Mr. Camp said, will not have it's locking lugs round out with "a few magazines" of +P ammo. Camp's writings on the Hi-Power and it's durability have the weight of experience and competence behind them and are a better overall take on the gun in my experience and opinion.

The BHP is like the S&W M19 and M13. They are excellent fighting handguns so long as you take care of them and don't treat them like an N frame or L frame. The BHP is one of the great fighting handguns of the last century, and is still that today, but it's not up to the rigors of modern competitive shooting in the volume many shoot today. For that a stronger gun is needed or the patience to upgrade parts of the BHP more often. I think that's an honest take.
 
I hear you Tipoc, I really do (my Hi-Power rests just a feet away from me as I type this) - although I know that it is not "the best pistol out there" I still trust it to deliver the 100% reliability it is known for. I rarely fall to the "other guy's opinion", but I have to admit that Mr. Saive (and papa John, of course!) did made a quite remarkable pistol!
 
Maybe if other people have stopped making Browning High Powers, the Indian Ordnance Factory will start exporting its Inglis clone to the US:

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/7.htm

(Apologies if this has already been mentioned. I have been gone for a while and only saw this thread today. I did not read all 6 pages of it, as I really should have before posting. The only High Power I have ever owned is an IOF Inglis, and it is excellent, if rather homely.)
 
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So now I'm wondering what a list of spare parts, prioritized, would look like Perhaps a new threat for the gunsmiths is in order.
 
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