Trapdoor Springfield, Loose Breech Block.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dodgeman414

Dodgeman414

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2017
Messages
21
Location
Delaware, Ohio
I had a great opportunity to pick up a trapdoor Springfield recently. Now I am trying to educate myself and determine if it's safe to shoot. It's a Model 1873 built in 1877 by the serial number. It has a high arch breech block. The previous owner shot the rifle as recently as two to three years ago. The rifle is in very good shape overall. Bore is shinny with some lead fouling. It measures .456ish to .458 (to the best of my limited tools). Lands and grooves are well defined with surprisingly sharp edges. My largest concern is with the trapdoor. When it's open it wobbles allover. When it's closed it locks up fine, but still has maybe .020 side to side (what I'd call a yaw) movement. It has no discernible fore and aft, or vertical movement. There is wear showing everywhere as I would expect, but it all appears to work perfectly fine. The breech block doesn't show any excessive wear, but there is some pitting on the breach face.
 
The breach block on mine (330xxx) is still fairly tight when opened fully. I've handled 3 so far and none had more than just a little wiggle when flipped full open. No "yaw" when closed on my example.
 

Attachments

  • 20170718_234723.jpg
    20170718_234723.jpg
    93.3 KB · Views: 21
  • 20170718_234740.jpg
    20170718_234740.jpg
    112.3 KB · Views: 20
Dodgeman414 said:
My SN #77211. I am going to try to attach a couple photos, I am not so good with the computer at times. The pictures show the breech block pushed to the extremes. You can see the movement by looking at the last #1.
View media item 1151View media item 1150
Click to expand...

The small amount of sidewise movement is not significant. If the breechblock otherwise locks-up and functions properly, there is no need for concern. The hinge does not bear any significant load in firing; rather, the stress is transmitted directly rearward through the body of the breechblock to the cam and the breechplug recess it locks into.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
loose noose said:
The important thing is does it lock up securely when loaded?!
Click to expand...
That's a great question. I have not checked the play with brass in the chamber. I have some new brass, and that will be the first thing I do in the morning. I might not be able to sleep now, in which case I'll do it tonight.
 
Dodgeman414 said:
That's a great question. I have not checked the play with brass in the chamber. I have some new brass, and that will be the first thing I do in the morning. I might not be able to sleep now, in which case I'll do it tonight.
Click to expand...
With brass in the chamber it has the same amount of wiggle. I used some clay (messy) to get an idea how much headspace I have, and it looks like I have around 0.015". As I stated though, with the breech closed there is no discernible for and aft movement. I purchased a box of Winchester Super "X" 45-70 Govt, cowboy action ammunition. Once I have everything clean to my satisfaction, I think I will, with all do caution, fire a few rounds.
 
I've shot some factory Remington 45-70 thru my 1874 Sharps, I believe they were 350 grain, however the only ammo I've ever shot thru my Springfield Trap Door is strictly black powder, note mine has been completely refurbished, with everything except the lock, stock, and barrel, hmm where have I heard that saying before. BTW my rifle looks like it is brand new, and that is how I bought it, as a shooter within reason.

Incidentally I only paid $600 for it due to the restoration, however the barrel had very crisp lands and grooves, and the lock was very tight. That was right around 1998 or so, was told it was manufactured around 1871 originally. I've found that to get any kind of accuracy out of those rifles is to use a Black Powder Mil Spec lead projectile, so as to fill the lands and grooves as the bullet goes down the barrel. You might also get a copy of Pat Wolf's "Loading Cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and Carbine". A must have for the enthusiast.
 
Last edited:
Gotta love the holy black!

65 grains, lubed cardboard disk & a Lee 405 hollow base projectile ( lubed with beeswax, soy wax and olive oil ).
And I can still hit the 300 yard steel regularly with her.
 
loose noose said:
I've shot some factory Remington 45-70 thru my 1874 Sharps, I believe they were 350 grain, however the only ammo I've ever shot thru my Springfield Trap Door is strictly black powder, note mine has been completely refurbished, with everything except the lock, stock, and barrel, hmm where have I heard that saying before. BTW my rifle looks like it is brand new, and that is how I bought it, as a shooter within reason.

Incidentally I only paid $600 for it due to the restoration, however the barrel had very crisp lands and grooves, and the lock was very tight. That was right around 1998 or so, was told it was manufactured around 1871 originally. I've found that to get any kind of accuracy out of those rifles is to use a Black Powder Mil Spec lead projectile, so as to fill the lands and grooves as the bullet goes down the barrel. You might also get a copy of Pat Wolf's "Loading Cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and Carbine". A must have for the enthusiast.
Click to expand...

I didn't get off so cheap at $900. The exterior of the rifle is nice, and it even has the correct ramrod. The barrel is very nice with surprisingly (to me) sharp and well defined grooves. It has some lead, and what looks like copper fouling at the muzzle. I am not going to be terribly upset if I can't shoot it, but I sure would like too. I keep flip-flopping on the black powder issue. It's a pain cleaning my Pedersoli 1861 Springfield after use. I have been told that black powder is hard on the brass cartridge.

I just want to shoot it occasionally, but want to be safe. My gut tells me it's locked up good fore and aft. I just not sure about the head space. Don't want to lose the rifle in a mishap.
 
I used a lot of about 100 rds of brass for my 86 Winchester long ago. I washed them in hot water after I got home, they still discolored some, but never had any actual problems. I had the brass tumbled in a friends vibratory cleaner after I stopped shooting black and shot them along with my other brass for several years. The discoloration never caused actual corrosion that I could tell.

Theres a number of favorite ways to clean brass, but the simple modern-ish method of warm water and some Lemi-shine citric acid powder in water (Lemi-shine is a dishwasher additive you can get at walmart. a half teaspoon is way plenty per batch), and a drop of dish soap, and not bothering with stainless steel pins seems to work very well on the things Ive tried it on. I bought the cheapo Harbor freight rock tumbler with 2 drums. I don't even think that's required for most brass cleaning use, let alone the stainless pins, just soaking and agitatingthe bucket or whatever once in a while is probably good enough for most uses.
 
When I was shooting CAS, the after match long range shoots required a period correct rifle, when using that Springfield or my Sharps and using strictly black powder, I would after shooting the cartridges place them in a glass jar with, water and liquid dish washing detergent, after getting them home, I'd rinse them out and set them out to dry. Once dry, I placed them in my tumbler and they came out looking like brand new. Cleaned both rifles using 3 equal parts mixed together of Murphy's Soap Oil, rubbing alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide. Afterwards I swabbed the bore with Thompson's Bore Butter.(Always run a swab down the bore to remove any excess TBB prior to again shooting) Never had a problem in hitting the steel gong at 250 yards with either piece, and still can hit my large steel popper at 500 yards, 8/10 rounds.
 
loose noose said:
When I was shooting CAS, the after match long range shoots required a period correct rifle, when using that Springfield or my Sharps and using strictly black powder, I would after shooting the cartridges place them in a glass jar with, water and liquid dish washing detergent, after getting them home, I'd rinse them out and set them out to dry. Once dry, I placed them in my tumbler and they came out looking like brand new. Cleaned both rifles using 3 equal parts mixed together of Murphy's Soap Oil, rubbing alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide. Afterwards I swabbed the bore with Thompson's Bore Butter.(Always run a swab down the bore to remove any excess TBB prior to again shooting) Never had a problem in hitting the steel gong at 250 yards with either piece, and still can hit my large steel popper at 500 yards, 8/10 rounds.
Click to expand...

That sounds easy enough. I have a tumbler and use it all the time. I've been using Frankfort Arsenal brass cleaner, Lemi-shine, and a drop of Dawn dish soap along with the pins. I am becoming sold on using black powder.
 
The biggest thing to worry about is when the breechblock is closed and latched is it solid? If there's any movement in the latched position, it will need a real gunsmith to tighten the block up.
Blackpowder is what that old girl was built for and is what it will shoot the best. Load a 405 gr bullet lubed with a proven bpcr lube, over 70 grains of Olde Eynsford 2f and a .030 fiber wad, in cases primed with rp 9 1/2 primer. Blowing three or 4 breaths down the breech should keep you shooting accurately for a number of rounds. When accuracy starts to go down, wipe the bore with a 2 1/2 in flannel patch soaked in a mix of NAPA oil and water mixed 1 part oil to 10 parts water. Use the same solution to clean up after shooting, followed by a good bore cleaner to remove carbon fouling and any leading. Montana Extreme Cowboy blend works well for this as does Butch's bore shine.
When satisfied the bore is clean and dry, Montana Extreme accuracy oil works very well to oil the bore and the block for storage.
Deprime your cases toss them in a coffee can, add about a tablespoon of oxyclean and cover with hot water, put the lid on the can and roll it around in your hands, then flush with clear cold water. When the cases are dry run them thru the tumbler with corncob media and a dollop of Brasso. The Ultrasonic cleaners work well after the oxyclean treatment also, and one can by pass the tumbler.
 
Dodgeman414 said:
When it's closed it locks up fine,
Click to expand...
You might check fore and aft play with the block down while holding the locking lever up (held vertical - unlocked) to get a better idea to whether there is movement.

Dodgeman414 said:
I used some clay (messy) to get an idea how much headspace I have
Click to expand...
Maybe elaborate on that one, as I'm not familiar with it.
My 'poor mans' headspace test always involves circular layers of scotch tape applied to the back of the case
(thickness measured with a before and after measurement of the case).

I deprime cases after shooting and drop the cases in soapy water. At home, I put the cases in a bowl of hot soapy water and give
each case a couple of passes with an appropriate size bottle brush. The brush works to jet the water thru the
primer pocket and also clean the base of the case interior.

You can always duplex the black if cleaning is really that much of a pain or if the bore is catching too much fouling.

Said it before, I wish ANY of my centerfire bolt or semi rifles were as fast to clean as my flinters or BP cartridge rifles.
No chamber guides, changing patches between passes thru the bore, letting bore/copper solvent soak, etc.
Just a wood/brass jag rod and WSO with TCs bore butter to finish.

JT
 
JT-AR-MG42 said:
You might check fore and aft play with the block down while holding the locking lever up (held vertical - unlocked) to get a better idea to whether there is movement.


Maybe elaborate on that one, as I'm not familiar with it.
My 'poor mans' headspace test always involves circular layers of scotch tape applied to the back of the case
(thickness measured with a before and after measurement of the case).

I deprime cases after shooting and drop the cases in soapy water. At home, I put the cases in a bowl of hot soapy water and give
each case a couple of passes with an appropriate size bottle brush. The brush works to jet the water thru the
primer pocket and also clean the base of the case interior.

You can always duplex the black if cleaning is really that much of a pain or if the bore is catching too much fouling.

Said it before, I wish ANY of my centerfire bolt or semi rifles were as fast to clean as my flinters or BP cartridge rifles.
No chamber guides, changing patches between passes thru the bore, letting bore/copper solvent soak, etc.
Just a wood/brass jag rod and WSO with TCs bore butter to finish.

JT
Click to expand...

JT-AR-MG42, Well, first you have to understand I am a mechanical engineer that has spent a lifetime racing, and going fast in cars. Guns were secondary to me. They were my dad's deal although we shared time with cars and guns. My dad passed in 2010, I damn near followed a year later, and again in 2016. I can no longer do the car thing, that part of my life is done. Now I shoot a little, load a little, and try to enjoy life.

The clay comes from engine set up, and checking valve clearance. Neatly place clay on the top of the piston, install the head, roll the engine over. Tear it apart and measure the thickness of the clay between the valves and the piston. Seemed like a great way to model the clearance on the trapdoor. Made an unintended mess.

Thanks for the cleaning tips. This is all new to me as my dad never shot black powder, and I am trying to learn. I like it already.
 
Don McDowell said:
The biggest thing to worry about is when the breechblock is closed and latched is it solid? If there's any movement in the latched position, it will need a real gunsmith to tighten the block up.
Blackpowder is what that old girl was built for and is what it will shoot the best. Load a 405 gr bullet lubed with a proven bpcr lube, over 70 grains of Olde Eynsford 2f and a .030 fiber wad, in cases primed with rp 9 1/2 primer. Blowing three or 4 breaths down the breech should keep you shooting accurately for a number of rounds. When accuracy starts to go down, wipe the bore with a 2 1/2 in flannel patch soaked in a mix of NAPA oil and water mixed 1 part oil to 10 parts water. Use the same solution to clean up after shooting, followed by a good bore cleaner to remove carbon fouling and any leading. Montana Extreme Cowboy blend works well for this as does Butch's bore shine.
When satisfied the bore is clean and dry, Montana Extreme accuracy oil works very well to oil the bore and the block for storage.
Deprime your cases toss them in a coffee can, add about a tablespoon of oxyclean and cover with hot water, put the lid on the can and roll it around in your hands, then flush with clear cold water. When the cases are dry run them thru the tumbler with corncob media and a dollop of Brasso. The Ultrasonic cleaners work well after the oxyclean treatment also, and one can by pass the tumbler.
Click to expand...

Don, you place a .030 fiber wad in the brass under the bullet? What is the purpose? I still can't feel any movement. I'll see if maybe I can check it with feelers gauges. Watch out, car guy working on a gun. I am in the process of borrowing a breech block for a comparison.

I have some 300 gr poly coated lead bullets I run through a Marlin lever action. I was going to load them with 50 grains of Hodgdon 2f that I run in my Pedersoli 1861 replica Springfield. Just as a test. What are your thoughts? I am open to anyone's thoughts.
 
I received another breech block today. It is in better overall condition than the original (if it is the original). I swapped them out. This was also my first time disassembling the rifle. I found a broken firing pin. Both sides of the brake have been peened indicating the rifle has been used following the brake. Replacement firing pin is on the way. The different breech block locks up a little tighter than what was in the rifle, and has a much better breech face. I'll leave this one in, and as soon as I get the firing pin installed and the leading out of the barrel, I am off to the range.View media item 1247View media item 1249View media item 1251View media item 1253View media item 1254
 
Last edited:
The purpose of the fiber wad under the bullet is to protect the bullet base and prevent blowby and gas cutting of the sides of the bullet.
That broken firing pin would be a major cause of accuracy problems.
 
Those poly coated bullets won't likely work worth a flip with blackpowder. The twist in that trapdoor should stabilize the 300 gr bullet well enough, but that ol girl was built to shoot a 1.1 in long bullet (405 gr.)
 
What Don McDowell just stated, the 405 gr. is what was intended for the Springfield Trapdoor. .Looking forward to your range report, keep us posted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
Trapdoor Springfield - How much breech block wobble is acceptable?
Replies
10
Views
725
Steel Horse Rider
S
B
  • Locked
1873 Trapdoor Breech Block Wobble
Replies
4
Views
346
4v50 Gary
4v50 Gary
R
  • Locked
High Arch Springfield Breech Block
Replies
12
Views
1K
dieselchief
D
B
1873 trapdoor wobble
Replies
18
Views
768
SC45-70
SC45-70
B
  • Locked
Trapdoor Springfield questions...
Replies
2
Views
2K
romer12
romer12
Back
Top