Vortex 1000 yards on a budget, less than $1 per yard!

If I'm not mistaken, that bi-pod probably cost as much as the rifle ... Still, both the rifle and the scope are excellent entry-level products; I picked up an American as a back-up rifle to take to deer camp with me last fall, have been impressed, actually, and have had great luck with Vortex optics (no experience with the Diamondback).

Just my humble opinion here but for that much you could have a better set up with a Savage 10 FCP, SWFA SS 10M and Harris bipod and still have enough left over for enough FGMM to compete in an F-TR shoot.

Orcon said:

Just my humble opinion here but for that much you could have a better set up with a Savage 10 FCP, SWFA SS 10M and Harris bipod and still have enough left over for enough FGMM to compete in an F-TR shoot.

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That would make more sense IMO. The fixed power SWFAs are a bargain, as are the Savages.

Is the 10x or 12x SWFA enough?

And the Savage Long Range Precision is 6.5 Creedmore in a HS stock. A bit more expensive, but not bad.

Zerodefect said:

Is the 10x or 12x SWFA enough?.

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Oh yeah. I rarely use my scopes past 12x. I find the combination of glass quality on most scopes and mirage makes it pretty hard to see the target with high magnification.

Thanks.

Zerodefect said:

Is the 10x or 12x SWFA enough?

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Not for me. When the closest target is over 650 and the largest is around 2moa, I like a lot more than 12x.

What needs to be reminded here - there are LOTS of combinations which will get you to 1,000yrds on target which fall under $1,000 newly purchased retail price. My first venture at 1,000yrds was with a Ruger M77MkII .30-06 and a Tasco High Country Gold 4-16x44mm Mildot, bought the whole thing for $350 after tax. A simple bedding job in a $350 Rem 700 ADL from Walmart will generally get a guy sub-MOA these days, and any $300-400 Nikon/Vortex/Leupold/Bushnell 6-24x50mm with SF or AO will allow shots on even conservatively sized targets, so a skilled marksman chasing a 24", 36", or 48" gong at 1,000yrds won't be complaining about the kit.

For me, however, the target really needs to be responsibly sized. I've never been a believer in patting yourself on the back for banging into a 5-6MOA or larger target at 600-1,000yrds with a supported rifle. Nothing at 1,000yrds is free, but at the same time, a guy would never brag about a 5" group at 100yrds.. Guys shoot remarkable unsupported groups in Highpower/CMP matches every weekend at 600yrds, on a ~6MOA aiming black and a 72", 12MOA background, of course. When a guy can pull that down with an ironsighted AR, unsupported, it's not so impressive to talk about doing it from a bipod or forward rest with a rear bag and a high magnification scope - let alone talking about more suitable cartridges compared to the 5.56/223...

1,000yrds is never free, but I've never felt a guy should talk about hitting targets the size of a truck hood at 1,000yrds and feel good about it.

I guess it depends on what you're trying to do. For our local PRS style matches, I use an SWFA 3-15x on my 6.5. I pretty much leave it on 12x inside of 700yds or so. The longest shot is 850, and the 15x is plenty for the 14 inch wide torso plate at that range. One of the guys at the last match used a 10x on his 6.5 the whole time and did fine, but said he'd like a little more for the longest targets. On the flip side, when you're shooting under time constraints at varying ranges, too much power is often a liability. A lot of guys at our matches that are running nice scopes with 25x or higher top ends still wind up using 12x to 15x for most of the targets. If we were shooting out past 1k, I'm sure the higher powers would give more of an advantage.

I have a fixed 12x on my .308 and on a nice still day, clay pigeons are easily visible and certainly not safe out to the 700 yd berm. If you were going to go fixed, I think the 12x would probably be the best compromise for varied targets 1k and in.

The only way I'd choose the .308 for a <$1,000 dedicated 1k steel banging rifle over one of the 6.5mm or 6mm options is if I specifically wanted to shoot FT-R.

For that much, you could just hire an indian to sneak up on the varmit and strangle it.

When a guy can pull that down with an ironsighted AR, unsupported, it's not so impressive to talk about doing it from a bipod or forward rest with a rear bag and a high magnification scope - let alone talking about more suitable cartridges compared to the 5.56/223...

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Not to diminish the abilities of many high power shooters but I wouldn't call a shooting jacket, sling and glove unsupported. In addition, it really helps when someone is pulling your target and marking every shot, in addition to having as you say a responsibly sized target suitable for that particular discipline.

As for the video ... what conclusions are we supposed to draw from it?

MCMXI said:

As for the video ... what conclusions are we supposed to draw from it?

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Vortex + 6.5 Creedmoor= Chris Kyle

There are a few rifle/scope combos that can be used to reach this and a few different videos showing it. Cudos for another option, especially since a lot of people are going the 6.5 route. I did my build for under $1100 (rifle in .308, scope (Thanks to Walkalong for assistance), rings, rail) and am happy with what I spent and how I spent it. This combo shown in the video would definitely come in even cheaper and allows a new shooter to enter the LR game easier.

You can easily build a long range gun for $400-$600. I don't see why you would do it because it won't bee as cool nor functional as if you were to spend a few hundred more, but all it really requires is a used hunting rifle and a cheap scope that holds. If I wanted to show off I would get a .243 Remington 700 ADL. On gunbroker they usually come with some sort of scope mounted. That gun would be about $325 shipped and with good ammo would make it to 1000+ yards.

That the casual user doesn't have to spend 5K for a rifle setup to bang steel at 1000 yards?

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What does "bang steel at 1000 yards" even mean? I think this video is disingenuous and more about Vortex selling scopes to young males than anything else. What's worse is that for many it's a big deal and a lot of effort to even find a place to shoot 1000 yards and this "it's cheap and easy" will do more harm than good. The ethics and morality of this industry got sucked out of the room decades ago, and with the prevalence of social media it's so much easier to persuade or convince the spoon fed and impressionable. This video reminds me of the folks who can "hit golf balls all day long at 400 yards" because they've hit them a few times in an afternoon of banging away. I like the folks at Vortex, have, use and like many of their products but this video tells me nothing meaningful about what equipment is required to consistently make hits on small targets at 1000 yards of even if the equipment featured is a good start. If you're trying to correlate long range success with a $1000 budget you should stick to the budget and not omit the $800 to $1000 spent on the suppressor, the $350 spent on the bipod, the cost of the chronograph to obtain an input for the app you purchased, the $1.60 per round getting everything squared away, the steel target you want to "bang" or the $30 spent on gas driving out to the middle of nowhere. Of course there's no mention of the tracking issues and frustration that comes with a budget scope that's been dialed 30 moa up and down 50 times, or the need for near ideal lighting conditions, or the constant misses due to the true accuracy and precision of the system and so on.

When you consider the cost of ammunition, the challenge for many to find a place to shoot, the cost of getting there, the cost of steel targets etc., do you really advocate that someone buy a Ruger American and a budget scope and spend the afternoon hurling $1.60 chunks of lead downrange in the hope of "banging steel".

MCMXI said:

What does "bang steel at 1000 yards" even mean?

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I think it's a pretty common turn of phrase for the activity of shooting AR500 type steel targets at longer ranges, often in an informal setting. Distinct from shooting benchrest type targets/rifles, hardcore competition or hunting. At least, that's what most folks seem to call it around here.

MCMXI said:

I think this video is disingenuous and more about Vortex selling scopes to young males than anything else.

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Well it did come from the marketing department of an American company, of course it's harder and more expensive than they make it look to do it well.... If I'm remembering my marketing classes adequately, main thrust of any marketing communication is expressing to potential customers why they need or would benefit from buying your product. Truth need only be included to the extent that it helps you sell or is required by law. I never was that interested in marketing, and was even less interested after I had to take a few classes in it.

This doesn't seem too out of line with the intimations of other standard commercials. Buy a fast car and all of a sudden you're king of track day, buy a Ford truck and all of a sudden you're king of the worksite, buy a certain expensive brand of camo and all of a sudden you're a steely eyed, remarkably fit dude carrying elk antlers over a mountain top. Then there's that old Weatherby ad that gets circulated every now and then that talks about how even a marginal hit with a Weatherby cartridge is usually enough to anchor an animal...

I'm just happy Vortex isn't putting out commercials talking about how their scope makes it easy-peasy to hunt animals at 600+ yards with a $1,000 rig, or some trash like that.

I think it's a pretty common turn of phrase for the activity of shooting AR500 type steel targets at longer ranges, often in an informal setting. Distinct from shooting benchrest type targets/rifles, hardcore competition or hunting. At least, that's what most folks seem to call it around here.

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I was being facetious.

The "it's the indian not the arrow" thing is typically thrown around by those who don't have good arrows. They want to convince themselves that their abilities with a cheap arrow surpass all of the hacks with their expensive ones and that they make more informed choices. While there's some statistical overlap with ability and arrows, you only have to look at what the top shooters in any discipline are using to realize that the arrow is a very important part of a successful system. I doubt that it would take very long for a knowledgeable individual to see the limitations of the rifle and scope in the video despite the enthusiasm of Ryan from Vortex. I guess it all depends on an individual's goals or objectives so "bang away", but realize that your hits per $ spent might not be as good as you think.

MCMXI said:

I guess it all depends on an individual's goals or objectives so "bang away", but realize that your hits per $ spent might not be as good as you think.

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I never claimed to be any great shot, nor did I defend Vortex's obviously oversimplified long range shooting commercial. I thought it's cheesiness would be obvious to anyone who's done a little longer range shooting, I just don't think that's at all unique to Vortex commercials. It's definitely not the Indian OR the arrow, it's both, and you really have to spend a certain amount of money to be on a level footing for club level matches and the like. Once you get up to that adequate rig though, spending 3x the cost isn't going to get the same shooter 3x the wins or points. I think I have about the cheapest setup that Is securely on the level footing for the club matches I shoot, and all up it costs ~$2k +or- depending on what kind of deals you get on the pieces. Of the 5 or 6 of these monthly matches I've been able to make it to, I usually come in middle of the pack, but I've won two (actually tied for first in the last one). I'm not one of best shooters there, and I have one of the cheaper rigs, but once you get an adequate setup, it mostly comes down to practice, knowing your drops and most importantly by far, reading the wind, in my opinion anyway.

MCMXI said:

Not to diminish the abilities of many high power shooters but I wouldn't call a shooting jacket, sling and glove unsupported.

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Agreed - highpower isn't exactly the same as field shooting in a T-shirt with a sling around your arm... But alternatively, I've never shot as tight of group standing in my Freeland or Creedmoors as I have when laying down on a Sinclair or Bald Eagle, and haven't met a shooter who could.

So my point was more on line that it's not really impressive to stick a 6.5 creedmoor or 308win on a harris, whether on a bench or prone, and walk hits onto a 5-6MOA target at 1000yrds when guys are doing it standing with a 5.56/223, jacket or not.

As I said before - nobody sits down at a bench with the types of rifles about which we're talking here and then brags about a 5-6" group at 100yrds. So we're talking about the effect of adding 900yrds to a 1MOA, 100yrd group. Elevation is just a matter of knowing your actual MV and conditions, so the challenge is the wind. Taking off a 1moa group, on a 5-6moa target would mean a missed wind call somewhere around 4-5mph, or a touch more. So you either missed a 10mph wind by 4-5mph, or missed the direction by 50-60degrees. If a guy can't read better than 4-5mph, they just can't read wind, and a $30 Caldwell Wind Wizard will solve that problem. If a guy can't call direction by 50-60degrees, I don't want to be on a firing line near them. If a guy is shooting in gusts, calling 10mph for his shooting condition, then breaking his shots at 5mph or 15mph, they're not good at reading wind, or they're not patient enough to shoot in variant wind...

Sure - any shooter should be proud that first time they walk a shot onto a 1,000yrd target, but if a guy is regularly shooting 1,000yrds, life should be smaller than 63". Don't get me wrong, nothing at 1,000yrds is free, so there are days where a 4MOA target feels like a pin-head, but a guy capable of sub-moa groups at 100yrds, who knows his trajectory & owns a wind meter, shouldn't have trouble finding a stable enough wind condition to get their finger on a 5-6MOA target at 1,000yrds pretty regularly.

Recognizing, that is coming from a my perspective after shooting my entire life in Kansas winds. I'm not "good" at reading wind, never have been, but I've never struggled to compensate for wind in my shooting, even living in a location where if the wind ever stopped blowing, we'd all fall over.

MCMXI said:

What does "bang steel at 1000 yards" even mean?

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It is exactly what it sounds like - shoot a rifle, and bang into a steel target at 1,000yrds. Nobody can see holes in paper at 1,000yrds without some one in the pits plugging spotters into the target, and walking/riding back and forth between every few shots is annoying as all get out, it's especially popular to shoot steel targets at longer ranges.

Generally when folks use that vernacular, however, it's a shift in mentality. I coach/instruct a lot of different shooters, and shoot with even more - you can see the difference in their moods when you have a piece of paper out there vs. a piece of steel. On paper, guys will pick their exact POA, and shift their POI to even smaller than the nearest 1/4MOA - dialing as much as they can, then even holding a half a crosshair to one side or the other of their POA dot. I see steel shooters relax a lot more, picking a comfortably floating POA on the plates, then being happy as long as the POI is generally close on the plate. For a circular plate, most guys still use a center hold, but then if they drop a 1MOA group a half MOA off center, they don't seem to worry much.

So "banging steel" tends to be a similar mood, in my experience, to the other colloquialism, "Minute of Deer," and much less related to precision paper punching.

Punch paper / bang steel

Sorta makes sense to me. Neither indicates or implies the degree of precision