Are CFE 223 and Leverevolution the same?

I'd ask Hodgdon for the answer to this question.

Fred

From what I have read they are not.
As Fred said, ask Hodgdon.

I have no earthly idea, but the fact that Hodgdon shows differing loads (and pressures) for the two powders for the one cartridge I plugged into their online database (.30-30) suggests that the answer is probably NO.

Do you think they're fictionalizing their load data?

Because Hodgdon says that a .30-30 loaded with a 150 grain bullet maxes out at 38.5 grains of LVR, but 36.8 of CFE 223. What is more, that same data shows a higher velocity for the LVR, but with lower peak pressure. They also show the LVR load as being compressed, with the CFE load not compressed.

Either Hodgdon is just making up data out of whole cloth, or the rumors are wrong. I know where I'd put my money if forced to wager.

bluetopper said:

I bet Hodgdon wouldn’t admit it if they were the same. LVR is marketed as very specialized.

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That doesn't make sense. I've found Hodgdon to be very helpful when I've talked to them at the SHOT Show, and when I've e-mailed them a question. They have nothing to hide, so why the suspicion?

Hope this helps.

Fred

Leverlution and CFE 223 are NOT the same powder. DO NOT mix load data between the two powders.

I have never heard anyone admit they were the same before. Why would Hodgdon have two powders in their line with two different names but the same powders? There is no reason to do that. Usually when powders are the same with different names they are under different company labels.

As for the powders being close in the burn rate charts, the charts will tell you which is relatively faster or slower but not how much faster or slower.

Not trying to pile on, but I would say no. When you look at Hodgdon's website, they do not advertise any two powders as being the same. However, their data tells the tale of the tape. Compare data for handgun powders HP38 and Win231 for instance or rifle powders H414 and Win760. All else being equal, when comparing "rebranded" powders, they don't have similar data - they have the exact same data on Hodgdon's website for a given cartridge/bullet weight combination.

They are next to each other on the burn rate chart but I don't think they are the same.

They sure are close
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=810
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=162

If H110 and W296 are the same
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=289
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=396

Never assume any two powders are the same by using how they LOOK!
The case has been made that HP-238 and WW.231 are the same. And H-110 and WW-296 the same as well. This is because Hodgdon does not make any powder, they simply repackage bulk or surplus powder. They became distributors of winchester a couple of years ago,(5?).

That sheet shows a whole extra ingredient for leverevolution that is not in CFE. They are NOT the same.

snuffy said:

The case has been made that HP-238 and WW.231 are the same. And H-110 and WW-296 the same as well. This is because Hodgdon does not make any powder, they simply repackage bulk or surplus powder. .

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And Hodgdon's annuals make explicit, IIRC, that H110 and W296 are in fact the same powder.

ArchAngelCD said:

Why would Hodgdon have two powders in their line with two different names but the same powders?

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snuffy said:

The case has been made that HP-238 and WW.231 are the same. And H-110 and WW-296 the same as well.

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Earlier today, I thought about bringing up W231/HP38 and H110/W296 in reply to ArchAngelCD's post.

Then, I thought about it and realized that the two pairs of powders are marketed under different brand names even though Hodgdon has the marketing rights to both names (Winchester and Hodgdon). Hence, no comment until now.

In the case of Leverevolution and CFE223, both are marketed under the Hodgdon brand name. I agree with ArchAngelCD that having identical powders under same brand name is probably not a good idea.

There are more 'duplicates' in the Hodgdon/Winchester lineup. WW748 matches up very closely with BLC2. H414 appears to be the same as WW760.

There is an excellent thread on here pertaining to precisely the subject of different named powders that are identical. I can say pretty positively that H414 is the exact same as WW760 and that HP38 is in fact the exact same thing as WW231.

cp1969 said:

There are more 'duplicates' in the Hodgdon/Winchester lineup. WW748 matches up very closely with BLC2. H414 appears to be the same as WW760.

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While W760 = H414 it is not true BL-C(2) = W748.

From what I know:
W231 = HP-38
W540 = BS-6
W571 = HS7
W296 = H110
W760 = H414
WAP = Silhouette

There might be others but those I'm sure of.

Type-o error, W540 - HS-6

ArchAngelCD said:

While W760 = H414 it is not true BL-C(2) = W748.

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You may be right but I have seen examples in loading manuals where WW748 and BLC2 loads match exactly.

cp1969 said:

You may be right but I have seen examples in loading manuals where WW748 and BLC2 loads match exactly.

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You may have seen that but I have not. Looking at the 30-30 with a 150gr bullets, the max charge if W748 is 34.5gr with pressures if 36,000 CUP. The BL-C(2) max charge is 37.0gr with pressures if only 33,900 CUP. Those numbers aren't even close.

bluetopper said:

Never seen any Leverevolution powder to see how it visually compares to CFE 223 but rumors suggest they may be the same powder. Are they?

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Rumors say the moon landing was fake too. Unless the manufacturer tells you they are the same or published recipes are shown to be exactly the same, one should use published sources for recipes and follow them as with any other powder.

bluetopper said:

I bet Hodgdon wouldn’t admit it if they were the same. LVR is marketed as very specialized.

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Why wouldn't they? They told me H110/W296, W231/HP38 are the same. In some stores the Winchester powder is more, in others it's the Hodgdon brand. Odds are Hodgdon gets the same for them, just that the distributors and retailers charge more for demand. LVR is a specialized powder, as supposedly so is CFE223. Neither would be very specialized if they worked in all applications. I've yet to see a lever in .223, but if there was, odds are either powder would work well in them. Was there a legitimate reason for your question or just idle curiosity?

ArchAngelCD said:

You may have seen that but I have not. Looking at the 30-30 with a 150gr bullets, the max charge if W748 is 34.5gr with pressures if 36,000 CUP. The BL-C(2) max charge is 37.0gr with pressures if only 33,900 CUP. Those numbers aren't even close.

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From Hodgdon #26
30-30 150gr BL-C(2) Min 32.0 2214 fps 32,400 CUP Max: 35.0 2384 fps 37,600 CUP
30-30 150gr WW748 Min 33.0 2249 fps 33,900 CUP Max: 35.0 2379 fps 37,600 CUP

.223 55 gr BL-C(2) Min 25.5 3069 fps 37,200 CUP Max: 27.5 3313 fps 48,500 CUP
.223 55 gr WW748 Min 25.5 3051 fps 37,000 CUP Max: 27.5 3309 fps 48,400 CUP

On the day that Hodgdon did their shooting, WW748 and BL-C(2) appear to be remarkably similar. For the most part, people agree that WW296 and H110 are the same and bigger discrepancies in loading data can be found with them.