30-30 spire point Bullets. Yay or Nay?

DustyGmt said:

I don't want to get dressed down or push people's buttons but... I had considered briefly the .223 because she shot it well. I almost posted a thread to inquire about which factory .223 loads (don't reload as of yet) would be most effective but didnt want to stir up a crap storm.

I am not a cartridge guy but I know most people don't look favorably on shooting med game with .22 caliber and have no immediate plans of doing so. I will just make it a point to get her to the range to shoot different rifles and get her more comfortable.

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Something else to think about would be to get another upper for your AR15 in a more deer suitable caliber such as 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, or 7.62x39. These are very very soft shooting in an AR15. Considerably less than a single shot in 30/30 or 7/08. Also many kids have a hard time operating an exposed hammer safely.

An AR15 actually makes a good rifle for kids since the controls are easy for small hands to reach, they are adjustable for length of pull, and they soak up the recoil.

Don’t under estimate the .30/30. It’s an excellent deer rifle/cartridge.
Most hunters don’t understand its capabilities and limitations.

Properly sighted-in, the .30/30 shoots flat enough for 200yd point and shoot on deer. No need for “special” bullets. Good old Remington Corlokts are outstanding, as well as Federal HiShok, and Winchester PowerPoints.

What’s more important is your daughters familiarity and comfort with the rifle.
I just finished off a week running a rifle range at a youth camp I work at every year. (34th year!). Best shooter of the week was a 13yr old girl! (Not the first time either...!).
Also explain to her that death isn’t always “clean”. Sometimes it’s ugly despite our best intentions and efforts.
I too would not overlook the .223. The deer in my avatar was dropped with a single shot from a .223. It’s like a .410 shotgun, It’s an experts surgical tool. Not a crude “bludgeon” like my .45/70 with a 400gr bullet at 2,000fps.

Even deer well hit with a 20ga Sabot slug (.54”) will run till they “leak” out.
Tell your daughter that we are looking to see the pictures of her fist deer!
Good luck and enjoy the range time with your daughter. That’s where it starts at.
I started out my granddaughter (4yrs old!) shooting air rifles with her mother and grandmother this week. She’s “hooked” already!

I wouldn’t have dreamed of starting my kids with a .223 for deer. I’ve changed my mind. Grandkids might get started with one.

I don't hunt but in playing with loads for my 30 Remington (same bullet as 30-30....really about the same just no rim) I can tell you that for putting holes where you want then everything I have worked up....and I used that word EVERYTHING shot "better" out of that rifle (model 8) then any round nose (tube mag safe) type bullet.

I am talking the exact same load bullet weight....bla bla bla....only difference one being pointy and one being round nose.....it just shot better (OUT OF THAT RIFLE).

I am tossing this out there because you both sound like you are new at the hunting thing and I think that in the "heat of the moment" I would want something as accurate as possible.

Just my two bits.

I have a great Springfield 840 bolt action 30-30, I shoot spritzer bullets in it sometimes. Also in my Marlin 30-30 lever gun but only load one in the magazine and one in the chamber. Typically I use flat point bullets in the Marlin though. Another thought, spritzer bullets designed for much higher velocities may not expand that well at 30-30 velocities. hdbiker

Thread drift again.
The Opening Post is about:
(a) beginnng hunter using a single shot .30-30 rifle, and
(b) yay or on nay using spire point bullets in a single shot .30-30 rifle.
I don't think comments about tube magazines or spire points in other than .30-30 answer the question asked in Post #1.

I'd truly suggest reloading, it would get optimal performance out of each rifle, reduced loads in 7-08, deer thumpers in .223 (check local laws for legal requirements) and a healthy in between on the 30-30, were I in your shoes and NOT reloading, I'd look at federal for deer loads in .223 the fusion 62 gr (2 types, one for msr and one not designated) would be one of the first to try, followed by the trophy bonded tip 62 gr, they do make 55 gr coppers from gmx and tsx, but those may not be as dramatic as you're hoping for. They also offer the old standby of the 60 gr partition load, these are not the ONLY deer capable loads out there but that's where I would start with factory ammo. In 7-08 there's this as well
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...tion-7mm-08-remington-120-grain-sst-box-of-20
And not reloading, I'd grab a few flavors of .30-30, and as long as all weapons/ammo combos are legal, try .223 deer loads, reduced 7-08 loads and .30-30 loads, check out ballistics, idk how long your barrels are, but estimate 27fps loss/inch of barrel vs the 24" barrel your ammo was likely tested in and see if the tables suggest that you can get to desired yardage with said combo (Hornady 1600 fps minimum impact speed, .223 1800 minimum (local regs may have minimums as well) and I forget exact numbers but most .30-30 ammo I've used will still expand around 1400 fps). After she plays with all of the weapons you've deemed acceptable, let her pick and the buy up and use up a butt load of that ammo this summer and share your victory pictures this fall. My oldest missed out on the last few deer seasons due to circumstances not allowing for enough range time to get practice to meet MY accuracy requirements for an ethical hunt but she'll likely be running reduced .243 loads or reduced 6.5 loads if she goes this year, no need for a cannon, deer ain't tanks. And my oldest is 12, her younger brother 10, and they're both thin enough to add weights when the wind kicks up. If he goes (unlikely he's just all about the varmints) he'll likely have a fast twist .22-250 or a Valk. Good luck and let us know how she does! !!!

I will back up and suggest a 223. I have shot my 30-30 since I started hunting, but primarily enjoy bow hunting for my buck. With does, I will use the old 30-30, 357 mag, or some other reloaded caliber, but tried a 223 a couple of times last year. All of my 223 reloads were for varmits so I used Federal Fusion, and was astounded on the great blood trails I got. One doe went 70 yards (shot at 213 yards), and one went 25 yards ( shot at 45 yards). I realize not everyone has as good of luck as I, but I feel with a good fitting stock and a good shot, the caliber is up to your expectations.

I agree with the guy that commented about rifle fitment. Make sure it fits her, use a hammer spur. The load comes last. At 100 yards or less, the bullet design doesn't matter as long as you get one that opens at the correct velocity.
I prefer round nose it flat point bullets for close range, but I use a lot of ballistic tips.
Remember that reduced loads are great for close range hunting. Try the powder that uses the smallest charge weight, or use H4895. 125 flat points will work well if you can get them to shoot well.
Above all Else, don't make her keep shooting the gun if she says it kicks too hard. My dad did that with a 30-06 when I was a kid. I fought a flinch till I was about 15. I don't think a 30-30 is too much though.

Plain old Federal Fusion 62gr. will work great. I use the higher velocity stuff, though they make a special lower velocity for MSR. It's bonded, though not really a premium bullet. One doe was a through and through.

Yes, spire point bullets are fine in a single shot or bolt action 30-30. However: Many spire points are built so that the taper will leave an odd looking gap around the mouth of the cartridge. There are some 130 grain bullets the have long enough straight sides to work comfortably.

Since you're probably not reloading, you might want to try one of the 125-150 grain loads available from Barnes, Federal, and maybe some others. 125 grains, properly placed, within 100 yards, will bring down a deer about as well as anything you can shoot, and at that range a flat point is just fine. Minimum fuss, and mild recoil for the new hunter.

One old timer I knew claimed that it's best to smoke a cigarette between the time you pull the trigger and the time you start tracking your deer. While the cigarette may be a bad idea, it is a good thing to give the animal 10 minutes or so to lie down and bleed out. Immediate chase just pushes them farther into the bushes.

For 200 pound mulies out here, the 223 is truly lighter than what you want. But I would have no hesitation going after 100 pound species with a 223 and 62 grain TTSX bullets.

And good on you, for setting a good example and teaching a young hunter.

I’m on the fence about 223 for deer, but if I were going to try it this is what I would use. This is the same style bonded bullet in the federal fusion ammo, just heavier. Should shoot fine in a 1:7 or 1:8 twist

https://www.luckygunner.com/223-rem-75-gr-gold-dot-soft-point-speer-20-rounds

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....-grain-speer-gold-dot-rifle-bullets-100-count

DustyGmt said:

I've got an AR with a 1:7 Stainless 16" bbl and an AR with 1:9 melonite 16"bbl. If I was considering using the AR for deer sized game, I would want to go with something heavy and bonded in the 1:7 correct, so long as the shot is taken within 100 yards or there about?

I don't intend for her to take a shot at any deer past 100 yards on her first hunt, ideally it will be closer....

(She shot a nice fist size group with the AR with a red dot at 50 yards, if she cannot shoot reasonably well with either of my other rifles perhaps I would consider the .223 as others mentioned being able to adjust length of pull is an added plus but I will have to do some additional reading on .223 for deer)

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Your 1:9 should shoot the partitions or fusions like a dream, should also handle the 55 gmxs just fine too, that longer barrel will gain you a Lil bit of velocity and reduce a Lil blast too, but ultimately if she shoots the shorter one better, then so be it. I'd like a faster twist than my single shot 20" varmint contour has, but velocity and shooter stability is about perfect, with a compact stock, it's a hellacious kid/truck gun, but I still envy the faster than 1:12 twists out there, I load for a buddy's 1:9 and it handles game bullets just fine.

DustyGmt said:

I've got an AR with a 1:7 Stainless 16" bbl and an AR with 1:9 melonite 16"bbl. If I was considering using the AR for deer sized game, I would want to go with something heavy and bonded in the 1:7 correct, so long as the shot is taken within 100 yards or there about?

I don't intend for her to take a shot at any deer past 100 yards on her first hunt, ideally it will be closer....

(She shot a nice fist size group with the AR with a red dot at 50 yards, if she cannot shoot reasonably well with either of my other rifles perhaps I would consider the .223 as others mentioned being able to adjust length of pull is an added plus but I will have to do some additional reading on .223 for deer)

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223 works. Of over 20 deer that my nieces shot, only one made it over 100 yards.
They used 55gr blitz Kings.

I’ve heard of a lot of people using 55 grain vmax’s on deer. I know they turn a coyote into a bag of jelly, but on deer I think I would at least want something that can penetrate a shoulder or spine and exit.

DustyGmt said:

I've got an AR with a 1:7 Stainless 16" bbl and an AR with 1:9 melonite 16"bbl. If I was considering using the AR for deer sized game, I would want to go with something heavy and bonded in the 1:7 correct, so long as the shot is taken within 100 yards or there about?

I don't intend for her to take a shot at any deer past 100 yards on her first hunt, ideally it will be closer....

(She shot a nice fist size group with the AR with a red dot at 50 yards, if she cannot shoot reasonably well with either of my other rifles perhaps I would consider the .223 as others mentioned being able to adjust length of pull is an added plus but I will have to do some additional reading on .223 for deer)

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It's a combination of what rifle/load she shoots best and what's legal in your state.

At woods distances, it usually won't be past 100yds that you can see.

At woods distances, the shape of the bullet doesn't matter as long as it's accurate in the rifle.

A lightweight .30-30 is going to kick more than you might expect.

The Hornady rubbernose bullets for lever actions do quite well as factory loads go. A friend killed her first deer with one out of my 788.

A friend's son killed his first deer at age 11 with a 64 gr Winchester .223 in AR.

Jim Watson said:

A lightweight .30-30 is going to kick more than you might expect.

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Actual recoil measured in ft.lbs. and perceived recoil are two very different things, the latter being subjective.

DustyGmt said:

I guess I haven't been paying attention. I just started getting into .223 on whitetail online and a 'ton" of people are using this caliber for deer. Not just the new kids on the block either, old wise guys. Imagine that.

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Oh yes, it's doable, easily, just like the .243 or .25 anything, match the bullet to the job, years ago, .22 deer bullets were unheard of, now however........ there's a score of good options, one of my favorites to put on game would be the nosler 64 gr bonded ppt
Eta, we've come full circle eh? .30 cal spitzers to .22 blunteds....... velcome one and all, also, that .223 is reason enough to get a turret press and start having some quality fun!

Sometimes it just takes a foot in the door to open some eyes, and the .38 you loaned him seems to have worked. Hopefully it'll grow for them both from there.

The .30-30 isn't hard to load for, and you can tailor loads for kids easily. A Lee Challenger kit for the .30-30, brass, bullets, a pound of IMR 3031 powder and primers and away you go.

The .223 AR, with properly constructed hunting bullets, has been killing deer and hogs for quite a while. I personally have better tools for the task, but I know the AR's I have stoked with Win Razor Boar XT ammo will work if pressed into such service. This choice could also work (if legal in your area) to get her started in the hunting fields.

Good luck, and share the stories with us when you get them!

Stay safe.