38 Super for dummies

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In general you are more correct than wrong. But it was not quite empty rhetoric. It was sales rhetoric, as I pointed out, and it sold guns. It was also rhetoric that was a part of creating a panic atmosphere so that Federal law enforcement could "gun up" and extend their influence. When the feds and local police claim and say that "fast cars, machine guns and bullet proof vests are carried by the gangsters we need the same" it got results then as it does now.

It was also more difficult to penetrate a vehicle, especially hit at an angle, in those days with a 158 gr. lead round nose bullet moving at 830 fps than with more powerful ammo. Police in those days were mostly armed with standard velocity 38 spl. as well as lesser rounds. Jacketed ball ammo moving at close to 1300 fps from either the 130 gr. ball of the Super 38, the 158 gr. round nose lead bullet of the 38/44 at over 1100 fps or the lead semi wad cutter of the 357 mag at over 1300 fps from a 4" barrel made more of an impact and increased the terminal effectiveness of bullets.. More power makes a difference.
I have read the similar and really wonder if those pistols with those loads were effective on the much heavier sheet metal for the autos of the day or if was just hype to sell those pistols.
The gunmen that waylaid the Barrow's gang were using rifle and even BARs and not pistols.
Bonnie_Clyde_Car%20(1)-U32654031814VBB-680x383.jpg
 
From what I've seen from this thread and other research is that 1500fps from 38 super may indeed be possible, but in the vast majority of circumstances, not advisable. What I've also gathered, is that 38 super sounds like a very good cartridge, especially for reloaders. And while other cartridges may certainly be more powerful, given that car bodies have gone from about 18 gauge sheet steel in the 20s and 30s to nearly 24 gauge steel today (not counting the smattering of aluminum and composite panels of some vehicles) even standard loadings of 38 super should have no problem performing the task they were originally developed for...you know, looking good and shooting cars:D
 
Barrow's car was shot with buckshot, rifles, and handguns. Where there was a failure to penetrate, it was probably the buckshot or a .32
 
I measured my pickup truck. It was built in the 2000's. It's a GM pickup -- with consistently the highest sales per year of any vehicle in the US. The body is 18 gauge, same as they used in the 20's and 30's. I also measured my wife's car. It's a 2019 model, made by a Japanese brand in the USA. It's also 18 gauge. It's true the bumper covers are ABS, but that is not what would be shielding the occupants. Additionally, modern vehicles use "super steels" on some structural components like the pillars to prevent roof collapse and in door reinforcements to stop intrusion from side impacts. Unibody construction can also result in more layers of steel in a component.

My point isn't that modern cars are more bullet proof -- just that old cars were not more bullet proof. I agree with Tipoc in #73. If we consider lead round nose and the popularity of .32's back then, maybe penetrating automobiles was inconsistent. But they didn't need .38 Super or .357 Magnum to solve this problem that is doubtfully even real. The idea did sell though.
 
As someone who did auto body work nearly 40 years ago and worked on old as well as new cars, I can say the older cars overall had thicker door/fender panels. They were harder to straighten, and easier to weld. The newer thinner, especially overseas stuff, panels took care to mig weld without blowing holes in it.

But whether the .38 Super, or any other pistol round, can penetrate car bodies is totally irrelevant to me.

But they didn't need .38 Super or .357 Magnum to solve this problem that is doubtfully even real. The idea did sell though.
I agree.
 
Ok flash back to the 1920's. Most law enforcement was armed with revolvers that were chambered in 38 Colt, 38 S&W and 38 Spl. 38 Spl. being more powerful than the first 2 listed. A small percentage were armed with N frame revolvers in 44 Spl. and 45 Colt or 45 acp. Some especially rural areas with single action revolvers. A few relatively with the 1911 in 45 acp. Up till the 1970s the U.S. was overwhelmingly a nation of wheelgunners, especially law enforcement.

In the post WWI period and with Prohibition organized gangs of criminals rose across the country in both rural and especially urban areas. Increasingly they were well armed to fight both each other and to fight cops. They also used motor vehicles that increased their mobility and speed. That was a novelty, meaning new. For most police depts. the use of cars was still new and most didn't have them or not many. Squad cars was still a new idea.

In the mid-west city of Chicago for example, Mayor Thompson...
"Thompson's policies, along with fears of postwar “crime waves” and “auto bandits,” led businesspeople and reformers to organize the Chicago Crime Commission and other anticrime groups, which were modestly effective in pressing for reforms...

The automobile brought changes in police practices as well. In 1906, a mounted squad was organized to control traffic, and by 1915 police used motorcycles to chase speeders. Police began issuing traffic tickets, rather than making arrests, in the mid-1910s. The department had begun to use cars for administrative purposes by 1908, and, in the 1920s, heavily armed detectives rode in squad cars. But communication was difficult until police began radio broadcasting in 1930. These changes, emphasizing the “war on crime,” were responses to broad public concerns. They shifted attention from controversies surrounding the police and fostered the image of police as professional, scientific crime fighters. Nevertheless, foot patrol remained widespread."
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/983.html

The heavily armed squad cars full of detectives were armed with long guns and sub machine guns to fight gangsters when they knew where to go to get them on raids. Maybe they had 1911s sometimes. But most cops, especially beat cops, didn't have that stuff, they had revolvers in 38 Spl. if lucky.

So in the 1920s both S&W and Colt responded to a need (real or perceived, doesn't matter) for more powerful handguns to fight with. Colt chambered the 38 acp in the 1911 with a more powerful loading and called the gun the Colt Super 38. Introduced it in 1929. S&W developed a more powerful load for the 38 Spl., placed it in a larger frame for a 44, and called it the 38/44 Heavy Duty with fixed sights for police work and the 38/44 Outdoorsman for hunting with adjustable sights introduced that in 1930. Both companies advertised that the rounds would penetrate auto bodies. Both companies responded to a new opening in the market for more powerful handguns.

Did it matter that the more powerful rounds more reliably penetrated into the vehicle and through the occupants of the vehicles? To the cops it did. Even if just the idea of it.

It's worth noting though that the majority of law enforcement never did adopt semiautomatic handguns till long after the second world war. Neither did they transition to the more powerful 38/44 round or the 357 Magnum though the latter did become popular with many police after the war. Most depts. never left the 38 Spl. till the transition to semis. But it was the special squads of "detectives" and the FBI, etc that did want and use more powerful handguns and more armament in general.
 
I measured my pickup truck. It was built in the 2000's. It's a GM pickup -- The body is 18 gauge, same as they used in the 20's and 30's. I also measured my wife's car. It's a 2019 model, made by a Japanese brand in the USA. It's also 18 gauge.

Just remember, what you're measuring is the sheet metal, plus the galvanization, plus the primer, plus the paint, plus the clear coat to get up to 18 gauge. Those layers do add up, the actual steel is more likely to be something like 20 or possibly 22 gauge steel.
 
Bottom line the Super is a great round. Superior to the 9MM and a heck of a lot easier to reload than the .357Sig.:neener:
 
A decent article on Frank Hamer, Bonnie and Clyde, bullet proof vests and the 38 Super.

http://sightm1911.com/lib/history/hamer_guns.htm

Tipoc, thank you for that important and informative article.

I think it confirms that at least as early as the 1930s, even otherwise clearly intelligent people were falling for marketing driven gun rag hype about the latest whizz-bang, must-have, uber cartridge of the day. The suggestion that 45 acp from a 5" barrel is unable to penetrate a single panel of automotive grade steel is patently absurd. Yet clearly, the hype had substantial influence on both criminals and lawmen at the time. I also love that the .35 Remington, which today's "wisdom" considers barely sufficient for deer, was a vicious car-stopper back in the day.

Sarcasm aside, nice article. Thanks.
 
I don't know if the article I linked to was "important" but it is interesting.
I've read the story of the 45 acp vs. 38 Super on bullet proof vests (of the 1930s) before. It reads like one of those apocryphal stories, maybe widely believed at the time but not rigorously tested. But I have no trouble believing that a 38 caliber bullet at close to 1300 fps penetrated better than a 45 acp.

On cars and vehicles. "The suggestion that 45 acp from a 5" barrel is unable to penetrate a single panel of automotive grade steel is patently absurd" well I agree. But folks aren't speaking of penetrating a single panel. Read again...

" The abandoned V8 spoke volumes to the able lawmen of Dallas County and to the Rangers. Ted Hinton had hit the car 17 out of 30 shots with his Thompson submachine gun and hadn’t penetrated the car body."

Seems they are not speaking of a single panel of sheet steel. But are speaking of penetrating through the body of the vehicle at any point and injuring or killing the people inside. It wasn't just a relatively thin piece of steel it had to get through. IIRC the 45acp from a Thompson did just under 1,000 fps or in that neighborhood. But still, that he hit the car 17 times and none penetrated seems dubious.

The 35 Remington #8 was a fine choice in the 1930's it let loose with more power than the 30/30. Had a 200 gr. 35 caliber bullet at over 2000 fps.
But then they also had a Colt Monitor which was a cut down lightened version of the BAR. that could knock holes in a brick wall. A 30-06 that could go full auto with a 20 round mag.
 
On cars and vehicles. "The suggestion that 45 acp from a 5" barrel is unable to penetrate a single panel of automotive grade steel is patently absurd" well I agree. But folks aren't speaking of penetrating a single panel. Read again...
.

Not in the article. In posts above it was suggested that 45 acp would not penetrate 18 ga steel, or something thereabouts. Through multiple panels, door cards, seat backs etc. ? Sure, probably not. But then, equally unlikely that the lighter 38 Super bullet would either.
 
The 45 acp with a 230 gr. bullet has more momentum but the 38 Super has greater energy. In general both the 9mm and the 38 Super in ball ammo out penetrate the 45 acp through things like doors, walls, helmets, etc. Of course that depends on distance, angle of impact, whether it hits interior structures like the stamped steel arms or gears that rolled up windows etc.

But like I said I'm skeptical of the claim that, in the instance cited, none of the 17 rounds that struck the vehicle penetrated through the vehicle. Fired from the Thompson the 45 would have similar energy as the 38 Super from a 5" barrel.

But with both fired from a 1911 the edge on penetration goes with the Super with ball ammo. Greater energy coupled with smaller diameter.
 
Speed is an important factor for penetrating steel, and the 38 Super had a big edge over the 45 in that respect.

In old ammo catalogs they often listed how many 7/8" pine boards the bullet would penetrate.

This is from a 1948 Remington catalog:

45 Auto, 230 metal case, 860 fps = 6 boards.

38 Super, 130 metal case, 1300 fps = 10 boards.

and others:

38 Automatic, 130 metal case, 1070 fps = 9 boards.

380 Automatic, 95 metal case, 970 fps = 5.5 boards.

9mm Luger, 124 metal case, 1150 fps = 9 boards.

357 Magnum, 158 metal point, 1450 fps = 12.5 boards.

30 Luger, 93 metal case, 1250 fps, = 11 boards.

38 Special, 158 lead, 870 fps = 6.5 boards.

38 Special, 158 metal point, 870 fps = 6.5 boards.

38 Special, 200 lead, 745 fps = 7.5 boards.

38 Special hi-speed, 158 lead, 1115 fps = 7.5 boards.
 
While you can use 9 sillymeter bullets in the 38 Super original 38ACP/Super bullets were .356" in dia.
American stuff is always bigger & better.:p
 
SAAMI specs are 0.3555" for 9mm, 0.3560" for 38 Super.

By tradition, we use 0.355" for 9mm and 0.356" for 38 Super. But bullets in factory 38 Super run from 0.355" to 0.356".

And we can use bullets up to 0.358" in either cartridge, if they fit the chamber okay.
 
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