The right ammo... It's a big deal.

Godsgunman · Dec 10, 2019

<*(((>< said:
You should see my single shot group.

@Godsgunman I would shoot a 5 round group and see what it looks like.

Yes I agree shooting more than 2 is proper. If you would have seen the target of the 25+ rounds of Hornady and the vast majority being close to 6" groups, if you can call that a "group". I was ecstatic to even see anything close to that 2 shot group with the Federal.
As far as handloading goes I used to load a lot for my 357 and 38. Unfortunately time is the issue. Going back to school, working weekends, wife and 2 kids. The reloading equipment is still packed from moving 3 years ago. The free time I do get is prepping for hunting and recreational shooting and there's far to little of that. Reloading just isn't in the cards right now.

jmr40 · Dec 10, 2019

Every rifle is a bit different, but all of my rifles shoot the Hornady Amercian Whitetail exceptionally well. The most accurate factory loads I've found for my 223 and 6.5 CM are also among the cheapest. I don't load for 223, but even my 6.5 CM handloads will only match the accuracy I get with the ammo below But it is important to experiment to see which loads your rifles like.

I've seen both of these loads shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards and 4" groups at 600. But that doesn't mean they will shoot well in every rifle.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1836125052
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020605499?pid=865833

Bfh_auto · Dec 11, 2019

I've had both excellent and terrible results from Hornady ammo.

A question for you. How fast did you shoot? Every axis I have shot started giving shotgun patterns after 4 or 5 shots if I didn't keep the barrel cool.
Also cleaning the barrel may have helped.

Picher · Dec 11, 2019

fireside44 said:
I've been loading for ten years now but the real problem was load testing since, at the time, I had to pay to shoot at locations clear across town and not all of them want you to even be shooting reloads. So unless youve already got the magical formula for your gun it's a real pain waiting for a range trip only to find you can increase your starting charge.

What I've done in the past is to load about 5 rounds of various seating depth or powder charge weights, clearly marked with magic markers on the cases, then shoot them at targets, drawing each group on a blank target as I shoot and labelling them on the real target after I remove it.

If I'm testing powder weight to the maximum they're clearly labelled and if there are pressure signs before reaching maximum, note that directly on the casings. The unfired rounds that have higher powder charges than the one I considered higher than safe are labelled dangerous and when I get home quickly pull their bullets and dump their powder charges back in the proper container.

Lately, I don't strive for maximum safe loads, but use only moderate loads and enjoy them. Therefore, I look for the load that gives the best performance, just check for accuracy, depending on various seating depths and bullet selection. Not having a Lee Loading tool or other means of adjusting seating depth at the range, I just determine the seating depth for contact with the lands and seat the bullets a few thousanths shorter.

Picher · Dec 11, 2019

Speaking of handloading, I have some rules that are followed always:
1. Only charged cases have their mouths upward.
2. After carefully weighing charges to get a measured couple of tenth's lower than the one I'm seeking, I weigh each rifle charge and trickle a few grains in to make the exact weight for every one.
3. Each charged case is placed in the shell holder, then a bullet placed on top and held until it enters the seating die.

Poper · Dec 11, 2019

fpgt72 said:
I think it goes past that......I think I am safe in saying that there are quite a bit of new people in shooting now....and people that are coming back to it.

I know of several people that are afraid to death of "reloaded" ammo. Lots of mis-information out there usually revolving around you will blow your hand off, face off, whatever. Also some of the "rules" reloaders go by tend to support this....never shoot anyone's reloads but your own.....if you are having an event (boy scouts for example) only factory ammo is to be used....stuff like this makes people go well if it is so safe why not let a boy scout shoot that garand with your home made 3006......well.......

Then there is cost.....the first thing they say is.....well how much will I save reloading my own 9mm......well not much, but reload your 375 H&H you are going to save money pretty quick.......however not many people shoot goofy stuff like that, and unless they are running hundreds of rounds a weekend loading for "common" flavors usually takes a while to recover costs.....then there is the time.....not many I know of would suggest to someone new out of the gate to start with a full progressive setup with all the feeders to where you pull the lever and a new round pops out.....then the costs of such a setup are pretty up there for entry......

Then what if you don't like it.....what if the entire process of loading ammo is just something you hate....you would much rather go buy 4 boxes of 30-40 Krag at $30 a box and shoot your once a month CMP match that way.....nothing wrong with that.....if you pay for that dillon it is a bigger hit to your pocket over a single stage.

Exactly why one size does not fit all.

taliv · Dec 11, 2019

Picher said:
Speaking of handloading, I have some rules that are followed always:
1. Only charged cases have their mouths upward.
2. After carefully weighing charges to get a measured couple of tenth's lower than the one I'm seeking, I weigh each rifle charge and trickle a few grains in to make the exact weight for every one.
3. Each charged case is placed in the shell holder, then a bullet placed on top and held until it enters the seating die.

1. i do the similar. unprimed cases are mouth down. once primed, they go mouth up. that way i make sure i don't forget to prime one.
2. same
3. i can see how theoretically you might avoid a squib doing this, but a double charge would be obvious. i usually powder all the cases in a loading tray, then check each one visually to make sure i didn't forget to put powder in one, then put bullets in the mouths. if i decide not to do all the cases in the trey, i immediately check and put bullets in the ones with powder, so i know

Picher · Dec 11, 2019

taliv said:
1. i do the similar. unprimed cases are mouth down. once primed, they go mouth up. that way i make sure i don't forget to prime one.
2. same
3. i can see how theoretically you might avoid a squib doing this, but a double charge would be obvious. i usually powder all the cases in a loading tray, then check each one visually to make sure i didn't forget to put powder in one, then put bullets in the mouths. if i decide not to do all the cases in the trey, i immediately check and put bullets in the ones with powder, so i know

Sorry, but having primed cases mouth-upward doesn't prevent double-charges, especially with lighter loads, like Bullseye powder target loads in handgun shells. If shells are mouth-down after priming and sitting in the loading block, you can more easily see the primers.

taliv · Dec 11, 2019

sorry, but this is rifle country, where we talk about rifles

handgun rounds get loaded on the 1050. rifle rounds use powders that are 95-99% case capacity, so it's just not possible to double charge them.

Picher · Dec 12, 2019

taliv said:
sorry, but this is rifle country, where we talk about rifles handgun rounds get loaded on the 1050. rifle rounds use powders that are 95-99% case capacity, so it's just not possible to double charge them.

I realize that nearly full rifle cases can't be double-charged, but mild plinking loads could be. Regardless, I don't change my procedures much and if a case is mouth-down, it's empty, whether a handgun or rifle case, and the new primer is visible and it's easy to see if it's seated properly or not, even though I've checked each one as they were seated.

If you keep your loading procedures as similar as possible, there are fewer chances for an accident.

Picher · Dec 13, 2019

I have 3, .223 bolt-actions and 3, .243s. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the rifles of the same chambering seem to all like the same die settings, powder charges and bullets. Once I get a load set for the rifle I shoot the most, the others seem to like it well enough for me (and I'm fussy).

I6turbo · Dec 13, 2019

gotboostvr said:
Federal Gold Medal Match has given great accuracy in the guns I've tried it in.

Privi match, not so much even their match components left me wanting. +/- 2gr from the lot of 168gr "match" bullets was way too much variance. I got +/- 0.1gr from SMK's.

Same here on the Federal GMM. It shoots so well in my CZ 550 Varmint .308 that I seriously don't think I could improve the groups much, if any, if I hand loaded for that gun.

Further on the "ammo matters" topic, it absolutely does. I have individual centerfire rifles that will shoot between .3 MOA and 1.6+ MOA (100 yards) depending upon which factory MATCH load I'm using. That's a lot of difference, IMO.

It's very much the case with 22 LR too. Here's a 50-yard target fired from the same gun (BRNO Model 4) using two different target loads from the same manufacturer (SK/Laupa). The two groups on the left are Standard Plus, the two on the right are Pistol Match. (I was messing around with sighting on the center target.) These two loads cost within one cent per round of each other, yet perform very differently. On a different gun (CZ 453 Varmint) the difference is half as much. IME, a lot of accurate 22 rimfire guns tend to be pretty picky about ammo.

fpgt72 · Dec 13, 2019

Picher said:
I have 3, .223 bolt-actions and 3, .243s. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the rifles of the same chambering seem to all like the same die settings, powder charges and bullets. Once I get a load set for the rifle I shoot the most, the others seem to like it well enough for me (and I'm fussy).

I think much of it has to do with the specific rifle and how it was made. I think most "modern" sporting rifles even back in the day had some very tight specs and they did not differ too much from one rifle to the next.

When making loads for carcano (same here I have 3) I would work up one load for a specific rifle, and record that guns SN in my book. After I got to a recipe that worked I would start on the next....one of the guns would not even chamber the round the first gun loved....the other you could get it in there but the bolt was VERY stiff. So each of the three guns gets its own specific ammo. And one of these rifles is in amazing shape...the other two are pretty worn, but still shoot minute of softball at 100 and that is darn good in my book for an old WWII rifle.

Picher · Dec 13, 2019

I6turbo said:
Same here on the Federal GMM. It shoots so well in my CZ 550 Varmint .308 that I seriously don't think I could improve the groups much, if any, if I hand loaded for that gun.

Further on the "ammo matters" topic, it absolutely does. I have centerfire guns that will shoot between .3 MOA and 1.6+ MOA (100 yards) using various factory MATCH loads. That's a lot of difference, IMO.

It's very much the case with 22 LR too. Here's a 50-yard target fired from the same gun (BRNO Model 4) using two different target loads from the same manufacturer (SK/Laupa). The two groups on the left are Standard Plus, the two on the right are Pistol Match. (I was messing around with sighting on the center target.) These two loads cost within one cent per round of each other, yet perform very differently. On a different gun (CZ 453 Varmint) the difference is half as much. IME, a lot of accurate 22 rimfire guns tend to be pretty picky about ammo.

View attachment 877739

I hope you went out and bought as much "Pistol Match" as you could find/afford with that Lot Number. That's hot stuff, especially compared with the Std. Plus, in that Model 4.

berettaprofessor · Dec 13, 2019

Godsgunman, I hate to rain on your parade, but I'd shoot a few more before I decided that a decent two-shot group was the norm for that ammo/rifle. Coincidence happens...

It's like they say about Alternative Medicine...."if it really worked, it would just be called Medicine." In this case, a few more shots will tell you if you've found the cure for waytoobiggroup disease or whether it just happened by chance.

FL-NC · Dec 13, 2019

I use the Federal nontypical in my Ruger American. It does better than 1 MOA, and is about $17 a box at academy sports.

I6turbo · Dec 14, 2019

Picher said:
I hope you went out and bought as much "Pistol Match" as you could find/afford with that Lot Number. That's hot stuff, especially compared with the Std. Plus, in that Model 4.

Yes, I immediately recognized how good that lot was shooting, ordered more rounds from the same place (before I even came home from the shooting trip) but when it arrived, only part of the new order matched the original lot number. I haven't yet tested the other lot number, hoping for good results but we'll see....

Picher · Dec 14, 2019

I6turbo said:
Yes, I immediately recognized how good that lot was shooting, ordered more rounds from the same place (before I even came home from the shooting trip) but when it arrived, only part of the new order matched the original lot number. I haven't yet tested the other lot number, hoping for good results but we'll see....

Best of luck with the other lot. If one lot is great, the other one will probably be pretty good. Hope it works out for you.

drobs · Dec 14, 2019

I had planned to hunt this year with my Springfield M1A, so I bought some high dollar hunting ammo for it.
Springfield recommend ballistic tip ammo over the standard green box soft point Remington ammo.

I ordered 2 boxes of Nosler 165gr Ballistic Tip and 2 boxes for Federal Premium 165gr Trophy Bonded tip.
Checking my zero at 25yds with both brands - the Federal put 2 out of 3 shots in the same hole. Whereas the more expensive Nosler was nice group but not as tight.

Picher · Dec 14, 2019

drobs said:
I had planned to hunt this year with my Springfield M1A, so I bought some high dollar hunting ammo for it.
Springfield recommend ballistic tip ammo over the standard green box soft point Remington ammo.

I ordered 2 boxes of Nosler 165gr Ballistic Tip and 2 boxes for Federal Premium 165gr Trophy Bonded tip.
Checking my zero at 25yds with both brands - the Federal put 2 out of 3 shots in the same hole. Whereas the more expensive Nosler was nice group but not as tight.

Grouping at 25 yards shouldn't be the only reason to choose one brand of hunting ammo over another. With iron sighted rifles, most hunters can't group better than 1 1/2" with the best handloaded ammo, but the kill zone on a deer is large enough so that grouping shouldn't be as much a factor as the bullet construction for the type/relative toughness of the game being hunted at the distances expected to be encountered.

You didn't mention what you were planning to hunt with the ammo, but Ballistic Tip ammo is perhaps better designed for deer and other similar or somewhat smaller game than the Trophy Bonded ammo, which is probably better for larger/tougher game like bear or moose.

Picher · Dec 14, 2019

Old Stumpy said:
I don't know why people think this. I started reloading back around 1972, and I didn't know anyone to ask questions of. And there was no internet. My resources were ten year old library books on hand loading, and a newly purchased reloading manual. I found that if you followed the written instructions, were careful and observant, and read and reread anything that wasn't clear, it was pretty straight-forward.
Don't exceed the listed powder charges for the bullet weights given.
Verify that you never double charge a case before seating a bullet.
Never guess.

Another "don't"! Don't let youngsters seat bullets without your careful observation. I have a relative whose revolver spit out two bullets at a target, after he let his young son seat bullets without carefully watching. (Apparently, one bullet went into a loosely-sized shell and disappeared, so he added another to make it look right.)

drobs · Dec 15, 2019

Picher said:
Grouping at 25 yards shouldn't be the only reason to choose one brand of hunting ammo over another. With iron sighted rifles, most hunters can't group better than 1 1/2" with the best handloaded ammo, but the kill zone on a deer is large enough so that grouping shouldn't be as much a factor as the bullet construction for the type/relative toughness of the game being hunted at the distances expected to be encountered.

You didn't mention what you were planning to hunt with the ammo, but Ballistic Tip ammo is perhaps better designed for deer and other similar or somewhat smaller game than the Trophy Bonded ammo, which is probably better for larger/tougher game like bear or moose.

Another reason, I chose the Federal over the Nosler, was it grouped in the same place where the rifle was previously sighted in. The grouping on the Nosler might have been a fluke (or just me). I'm sure a little more time spent with it + making some sight adjustments, it would work just fine.

I do appreciate your knowledge about Trophy Bonded ammo being more suitable on tougher game than Deer. I hunted in the morning with my M1A and then switched it out for my lighter weight AR15 in the late afternoon.

Shot my 1st deer in the evening with my Windham AR15 and a 62gr Federal Fusion 223. The deer jumped in the air and landed dead right there. I might to have to look into some Federal Fusion 165gr 308 for next year.

Missouri has one more portion for deer this year - Dec 28th - Jan 7th which is Alternative Methods (pistol, BP, spear, etc). I'll probably use an AR15 pistol for that portion.

The right ammo... It's a big deal.

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