Legal "work-arounds": How do you feel?

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And as far as I'm concerned, suppressors should be removed from NFA. Try driving a motor vehicle without one and see how that goes. A firearm suppressor is nothing but a muffler, it drops the sound level but does not eliminate it. Even in European countries with very strict firearm laws, they actually encourage people to use suppressors.
 
Yes and no, mostly no.

The actual laws are a mess and the ATF's interpretations are even worse.

Go read the 1934 NFA. Go read the 1968 GCA.

The actual definitions are often obsolete, incomplete, or nonsensical. And then what the ATF has decided they actually mean (until they change their mind again) is even worse.

For example, the '34 definition of a pistol is a bit obsolete. And then consider the ATF's position regarding hooked triggerguards vs aftermarket vertical foregrips vs AFG's.

Similarly, the '34 definition of a shotgun is not what you think. And it doesn't match with the '68 version. And then look up the Franklin Armory Reformation and what the ATF decided about that.

I see bumpstocks and braces as an effort to comply with the law. Or to be more specific, an effort to comply with a dynamic and hostile interpretation of poorly defined and generally unconstitutional law.

It sure is easy to label them all as "assault weapons". I don't know why you would, but it is easy. If anything, one of the interesting thing about such grey-area firearms is that state AWB's tend to place restrictions on "pistols" and "rifles" but not necessarily on "other"s. Or at least until a later legislative session.
 
Lawyers work the legal system, and make millions of dollars, by being very specific about the definitions of words and the meaning of phrases, including arguing over those aspects "when written" versus "in current usage."
The most famous example in history is probably the publicly available recording of a lawyer saying,
"It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."
Of course, that particular lawyer was later disbarred, but not for that particular statement.
 
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Interesting, despite a very high ranking based on "likes", that is a very ignorant statement based in what is clearly inexperience with the firearms in question regarding accuracy. No, they are not benchrest guns, nor would I try to defend myself or home with same. In some circles, that is the epitome of a Fudd stereotype. Ask Jim Zumbo how that went. This is how that sounds, "it's not what I use, so it is no good"
Sorry I offended you. it's actually like "It would not serve my needs, so I have no use for it."
 
In the spirit of the question, I hate the ones I know about. The shockwave and the bump stocks. I think they give too much of an opening to the anti gun position. I think the manufacturers are remiss for doing these guns and I am sorry people are buying them.
 
The speed limit sign reads 70 MPH. I'm driving 70. I'm getting as close as I can without actually breaking the law. Am I a rebellious scofflaw, flouting the intent and spirit of the law? Or am I a good citizen, keeping my vehicle at safe and responsible speeds? Am I "working around" the law or am I simply obeying the law? After all, 70 is the maximum I can legally drive, but maybe they really want me to go slower than that. Should I drive 60 when I see a 70 MPH speed zone, because that might be what was "intended?"

Terms like "workaround" and "loophole" have intentionally negative connotations. Whereas "law abiding" and "within the law" are positive. It saddens me to see "gun guys" using pejorative terms to refer to perfectly legal firearms. We have plenty of people outside of our community who are true enemies to our liberty and freedom.
Took the words right out of my mouth.....
 
The speed limit sign reads 70 MPH. I'm driving 70. I'm getting as close as I can without actually breaking the law. Am I a rebellious scofflaw, flouting the intent and spirit of the law? Or am I a good citizen, keeping my vehicle at safe and responsible speeds? Am I "working around" the law or am I simply obeying the law? After all, 70 is the maximum I can legally drive, but maybe they really want me to go slower than that. Should I drive 60 when I see a 70 MPH speed zone, because that might be what was "intended?"

Terms like "workaround" and "loophole" have intentionally negative connotations. Whereas "law abiding" and "within the law" are positive. It saddens me to see "gun guys" using pejorative terms to refer to perfectly legal firearms. We have plenty of people outside of our community who are true enemies to our liberty and freedom.

In my opinion, that is a terrible analogy.

If a law is passed that says no shotguns are to be manufactured for, or possessed by, private citizens, where the barrel is shorter than 18" in length (yes, I'm simplifying), then the Mossberg Shockwave is a clear example of a workaround. Using loopholes in descriptions and restrictions of firearm types, their dimensions, and their parts. It's still a shotgun. It's just not legally defined as one.

And to your comment about a 'gun guy using pejorative terms', I call them as I see them. You may take that however you wish. But as I occasionally remind folks, the swing voters make the difference. And appearing to treat them as idiots by telling them "that spade ain't a spade; it's a shovel", isn't likely to convince them that pro gun people are genuine and honest. Quite the opposite, as I see it.
 
"Work-around"?

See, this is the problem with creating laws. When you codify something, you automatically define limits, and by default you also define exceptions...which in addition to explicit exceptions are also things which do not meet the "limits" which were codified.

So...no, not "work-around". Staying "within the limits" of the written law.

Call it a way of saying "OK, I'll play your silly game", if you wish.

This is why the term "assault weapon" or "assault rifle" is so important in the legal world. What the gun control crowd has been doing, and is still actively doing, is re-defining the term "assault weapon/rifle" to be literally whatever they SAY an assault weapon/rifle is. NOT what actually constitutes a functional assault weapon/rifle by it's original definition.

Thus we have things like the style of stock, the magazine capacity, the detachable magazine, the semi-automatic function, and a whole host of other things which do not have anything to do with what functionally constitutes an actual assault weapon/rifle.
 
I disagree. Laws are written in language. Language is how we convey our thoughts. It's not always possibly to put into words our exact thoughts, feelings, or desires. But we use language to do this because it is our best option.
First off, language changes, which is why there's debate over what the Founders meant when they crafted the Constitution.

Second, English has a word, for example, that means one thing and its complete opposite. Spelled the same and pronounced the same. "Cleave". A bride and groom cleave one to the other until death do them part. A meat cleaver is designed to chop things apart. Go figure.
 
In the spirit of the question, I hate the ones I know about. The shockwave and the bump stocks. I think they give too much of an opening to the anti gun position. I think the manufacturers are remiss for doing these guns and I am sorry people are buying them.
The enemies of liberty will use everything as an opening. We don't get our rights back by taking a back seat. We take our rights back by sitting at the front of the bus
 
I have no problem with all the "workarounds" in the world.

Frankly, things like the Shockwave and AR pistols shouldn't exist.

I SHOULD be able to pay the tax and live-register whatever I feel like building, AFTER I build it.

But at some point, a politician decided I'M NOT ALLOWED TO PAY A FEDERAL TAX, BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE PROHIBITING IT.

So here we are, with the framework they created.
 
Gun owners are sometimes our own worse enemies! Group A doesn't like what group B has and is fine if group B's guns get taken away. Group C doesn't like anything that group A or B owns and wants them all banned. It is wrong people. The old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" definitely fits here. If it is legal to own, then who cares! Let those that want to own AR pistols and Shockwave type firearms be. If you want to stick to just bolt action rifles and pump shotguns, so be it. If you want to stick with black powder only, so be it. Stop complaining about what someone else legally owns!

If any groups guns gets taken away or banned, there is nothing stopping the other groups from losing their firearms. Live and let live and stop B^*@*ing!
 
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The 'workarounds' are largely the result of inane and arbitrary gun regs being interpreted on the fly by unelected bureaucrats. While some of them kind of fly in the face of common sense just like the laws they were created to circumvent it's kind of what we have. To me the main downside of these legal-workarounds is that what's legal today might be illegal tomorrow, or whenever someone else decides to do the interpreting. Nothing in the code changed but overnight bump stock ownership went from being legal to being a felony. The arm brace was legal, then it wasn't legal to shoulder, and today it can be used in any manner you like. What will be the interpretation tomorrow? Stay tuned!
 
How do I fee about workarounds for skirting the intent of the law? The bump stock was one of these items and a poor substitute for a select fire weapon or machine gun. The bump stock was never for me. I always figured they moved the internal part of a machine gun to the outside .
IMHO I think one should be able to their LGS and buy a select fire weapon, suppressor or other NFA items of this type. Buy it with a normal background check and walk out the door.
 
If the legislature would quit working around what’s “allowed” by the Constitution, we wouldn’t have to improvise ways to work around their workarounds.

isn’t paying for a $200 stamp a workaround?
 
Here's another aspect. Back when the NFA was adopted, there were no background checks and you could buy a Chicago typewriter if you could put the money on the counter. Clyde Barrow simply stole his BARs from national guard armories. Circumstances have changed greatly since the 30s, but the laws remain the same. And of course, they affect only the law-abiding.
 
Law is law as written, it doesn't have a "spirit".

Obeying the law is obeying the law.

To me the Constitution is the ultimate law. The second amendment is very clear when it states 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' The key here is 'shall not be infringed.' Any law that has been written at the federal or state level is in of itself a work around to the Constitution. Our very elected officials have violated the law to create their own law. Politicians create excuses telling us what they think the spirit of the Constitution is and base the laws on the spirit. This kind of blind faith in whatever our politicians say or whatever laws they pass to me is a recipe for disaster. The progressives in this country work every day passing laws that violate our Constitutional rights. If we do not stand up to these blatant violation of the Constitution we will end up just another socialist country wearing a political nose ring.
 
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...Any law that has been written at the federal or state level is in of itself a work around to the Constitution. Our very elected officials have violated the law to create their own law. ....

If the legislature would quit working around what’s “allowed” by the Constitution, we wouldn’t have to improvise ways to work around their workarounds....

Time to inject a dose of reality into the discussion. What you, or you, or you, or I think the Constitution means or how it applies doesn't mean anything.

The Founding Fathers assigned the job of deciding what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....​

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...​

The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed. In fact, of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers: and of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

What our Constitution says and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about whether a law is constitutional, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....

And indeed, it is a general principle in the United States that courts give deference to legislative acts and presume statutes valid and enforceable, unless unconstitutionality is determined:

  1. As the Supreme Court said in Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827), at 437:
    ...It has been truly said, that the presumption is in favour of every legislative act, and that the whole burden of proof lies on him who denies its constitutionality...

  2. And much more recently in U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000), at 605:
    ......Due respect for the decisions of a coordinate branch of Government demands that we invalidate a congressional enactment only upon a plain showing that Congress has exceeded its constitutional bounds. See United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S., at 568, 577_578 (Kennedy, J., concurring); United States v. Harris, 106 U.S., at 635. With this presumption of constitutionality in mind, we turn to the question whether §13981 falls within Congress' power under Article I, §8, of the Constitution....

Holding on to cherished misconceptions about what the law is or how the law works doesn't help promote the RKBA. To deal effectively with reality we must first clearly understand it.

Of course in our system the people do have a say.

  • The Founding Fathers well understood how people do disagree and how politics works. They were active, mostly successfully, in the commercial and political world of the time. Almost all were very well educated. They were generally politically savvy. Many were members at various times of their home colonial assemblies or were otherwise active in local government or administration. They were solidly grounded in the real world and knew how to make things work in the real world. That is why they were able to bring our nation into being.

  • But we live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as you do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role of government. So while you and those who share your views may use the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote your vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

  • The Constitution, our laws, and our system give you resources and remedies. You can associate with others who think as you do and exercise what political power that association gives you to influence legislation. You have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people to enable you to elect legislators and other public officials who you think will be more attuned to your interests. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.

  • So if you want things to be different, by all means, get politically active and try to marshal sufficient political power to change things. But of course that doesn't guarantee that you will get your way. People who think that things should be different from the way you think things should be also have a say. If you don't believe that they do, you believe in tyranny -- as long as it's your tyranny.

The reality is that our Constitution has served as a governing document of this republic for over 200 years. We've survived a panoply of travails, including civil war, economic ups and downs, an assortment of lousy elected officials, and some really lousy laws (like Prohibition) -- and yet we endure. From The Wall Street Journal, "The Culture That Sustains America’s Constitution", 2 July 2018:
Since 1789 the average life span of national constitutions world-wide has been 19 years,according to scholars at the University of Chicago. Meanwhile, “We the People of the United States” are now well into the third century under our Constitution. We’ve lived under the same written charter longer than any people on earth. We’ve had regular federal elections every two years, uninterrupted even by the Civil War....
 
Frank,
I understand that reality, and I do appreciate your keen insight into the nuts and bolts of it.

that does not change the fact (ahem)...or rather my opinion, that we have laws that do indeed cross the bounds of what is constitutional.
Again, just one laymans opinion.

and yes, I do pen polite letters to my representatives
 
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