Significant pressure difference due to twist rate?

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Howland937

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I've thought a lot about it and searched here and there, but can't find an answer. Curious how significant twist rate is in terms of pressure? Or is it at all? Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but load data for a 5" barrel with 1/10 twist has a lower max load than a 5" 1/16 twist. Same company, same projectiles, same powders.

Was wondering if the difference in max load is a product of better testing capability or due to the different twist rates of their test barrels.
Anybody?
 
Typically yes.... a faster twist given all else is equal will give you a higher chamber pressure.....
 
I have never seen any data for this. My guess is that is because it is pretty much a non issue.
 
Twist is a minor factor, of the many. It's the same as 4 grove and 5r barrels have different pressures but it's just one of the many. Nothing to fret about but they are different. To be totally honest every barrel is unique.
 
What specific data are you talking about?
Sierra 5th Edition .38 Super data. Test gun is listed as STI 2011 5" 1/16 twist.
125gr bullet #8125 JHP COAL 1.215" Starline brass, WSR primer
Power Pistol max load is 7.8gr
Tite Group max is 6.0

Sierra 6th edition .38 Super. Test gun (universal)
5" 1/10 twist
125gr. #8125 @1.215" Starline, WSR primer
Power Pistol max is 7.4gr.
Tite Group is 5.3gr.

Other powders listed in both have similar weights across both editions.
I understand that every barrel is different and powder lots vary, etc... and this is why we have to work up. Just wondering if it's been something anyone's dealt with or experienced on the upper end of loads, where a faster twist rate caused a difference in pressure signs.
 
Edited to add:

I just recalled some correspondence with them about a year ago (June 2019) when I had a question about their 9mm Luger data. They responded and said,

"The 6th Edition data was collected with the use of a Universal Receiver and pressure barrels. That was not the case in the 5th Edition."

I don't know if that applied to all their data or not (i.e. 38 Super), but since they were using the universal receiver for the 6th Edition 38 Super data, it might.
 
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Here’s a link to a test that measured muzzle velocity vs barrel twist which can be correlated to pressure.

Does Barrel Twist Rate Affect Muzzle Velocity? (Litz Test)

There was a small change in velocity (1.33 fps per inch of twist) which in my mind means there will be a small change in pressure based on the twist. There are other factors already noted here that have a larger impact.

I would question the validity and usefulness of the conclusion. The difference in speed between the 1:8 and 1:12 was 8 fps, and the standard deviations for those data are larger than that. I'm not sure it would be a statistically significant difference. He also does not say how many shots were fired for his data, which would greatly affect any statistical comparison.
 
Sierra 5th Edition .38 Super data. Test gun is listed as STI 2011 5" 1/16 twist.
125gr bullet #8125 JHP COAL 1.215" Starline brass, WSR primer
Power Pistol max load is 7.8gr
Tite Group max is 6.0

Sierra 6th edition .38 Super. Test gun (universal)
5" 1/10 twist
125gr. #8125 @1.215" Starline, WSR primer
Power Pistol max is 7.4gr.
Tite Group is 5.3gr.

Other powders listed in both have similar weights across both editions.
I understand that every barrel is different and powder lots vary, etc... and this is why we have to work up. Just wondering if it's been something anyone's dealt with or experienced on the upper end of loads, where a faster twist rate caused a difference in pressure signs.


Well they do not list the pressure

What it all boils down to is that it was different tests, at different times with a DIFFERENT barrel!
It's like looking a load data from one manual to another. To me it is not an issue.

If you want a better explanation just call Sierra, They are very helpful folks to talk with.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/
 
Well they do not list the pressure

What it all boils down to is that it was different tests, at different times with a DIFFERENT barrel!
It's like looking a load data from one manual to another. To me it is not an issue.

If you want a better explanation just call Sierra, They are very helpful folks to talk with.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/

I understand that part. Much difference detectable from one firearm to the next, which is why I won't share reloaded ammo between guns unless it's on the low end of data until it's been proven safe.
Guess I was just wondering if anyone had actual experience with say, a faster twist barrel showing signs of higher pressure...all else being equal.
 
I understand that part. Much difference detectable from one firearm to the next, which is why I won't share reloaded ammo between guns unless it's on the low end of data until it's been proven safe.
Guess I was just wondering if anyone had actual experience with say, a faster twist barrel showing signs of higher pressure...all else being equal.


There is no way to detect or know any possible variance in pressure for a handgun ammo without lab equipment.. Primers will tell nothing. Recoil is subjective differences in semi autos and revolvers etc etc.

Only when there is extreme over pressure and KABOOM result,:)

How about this data from Hodgdon? They do not list a twist rate, 5 inch barrel Titegroup Sierra FMJ

125 GR. SIE FMJ
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Titegroup
0.355"
1.275"
4.4
1,020
23,800 CUP
5.0
1,124
31,800 CUP
 
Don’t sweat the small stuff.

Twist rate will influence velocity FAR less than individual bore conditions and similarly FAR less than individual chamber conditions, AND the theoretical pressure and twist rate relationship is not wholly one sided. As much as I enjoy pontificating respective theories, I always remain a results driven engineer, and in this particular case, an estimation of pressure increase due to twist rate is wholly insignificant to the inherent multivariate change from one barrel to the next (bore & chamber combination).

Observationally, I have noticed greater influence in pressure from changing brass than from changing between two otherwise identical barrels with different twist rates.
 
Always nice to get professional analysis.
In my unscientific brain, I guess I equated it to a pitcher throwing a baseball.
Same arm length, same arm angle, same arm speed, same baseball, but increased spin rate of a change-up produces 12-15mph decrease in velocity vs fastball. Just wasn't sure on spin rate to pressure math, if there was any meaningful relationship.
 
Same arm length, same arm angle, same arm speed, same baseball, but increased spin rate of a change-up produces 12-15mph decrease in velocity vs fastball.

Its the totally different grip on the ball that produces the velocity difference. I'm not sure the spin between a change-up and a 4 seamer is much different. Its breaking pitches that have increased spin and they too are launched with different grips.
 
Actually have it backwards anyway. 4 seam fastball spins at higher rpm than change-up.
I'm not sure the spin between a change-up and a 4 seamer is much different. Its breaking pitches that have increased spin and

It's the grip that changes spin rate, so arm velocity remains the same. At least that's the goal from my understanding.

Relative to bullet velocity, I'd assumed the faster spin would spell (slightly) lower velocity due to the energy required to produce higher rpm's.
Again, I'm not a science guy. I just work on cars :)
 
Actually the slowest pitch in baseball is the knuckle ball, which in theory should have no spin:)

I kind of see where you are coming from, I just don't think that throwing a baseball is a good analogy. But yes, some energy is soaked up producing the greater spin, but apparently it is negligible and lost in the background noise.
 
Charles Newton believed twist retards velocity. When Savage asked him to "tweak" the .25 caliber cartridge he had developed for them to get 3,000 fps, he reduced the bullet weight from 100 grains to 87 grains and optimized the twist for the shorter, lighter bullet. In the process, he screwed the pooch -- many old .250-3000 Savages will not shoot 100 grain bullets accurately. And as the data presented above shows, it was all for naught -- you couldn't get enough increase in velocity to matter.
 
I do not have a reference. I remember reading the late P. O. Ackley - a barrel maker for rifles and researcher and wildcatter and stuff - built a number of rifle barrels for the same cartridge (and receiver) to test the effects of rifling twist on chamber pressure. His conclusion was twist rates had less than 5% effect on chamber pressure. Pretty much ignorable.
 
Charles Newton believed twist retards velocity.
It does. It just doesn’t increase chamber pressure.
Maximum chamber pressure is achieved long before barrel twist is in play.

A long throat, shallow lead and Gain-Twist 5R rifling is not going to make up for 20 grains of powder.;)


In a 450 Bushmaster AR, the friction down the barrel has a lot to do with how much gas the bolt carrier gets. Bullet bearing surface and twist rate can affect the function of different rifles gas systems based on this increased friction, which robs only slightly velocity, but increases system pressure dramatically.
But this would not increase chamber pressure. Max is max. The throat diameter, length and lead angle would be more influential than the twist for chamber pressure.
In my limited experience. Which is...

I have a 1/14” twist Bushmaster barrel. Because of the increased dwell time in the barrel past the gas port, in reality a minuscule longer amount, a conservative load is incredibly harsh on the rifle.
By the time I removed the burrs from the port (a gauge would insert but not drop through, it would have eroded away anyhow) and lightened the spring and buffer to achieve function, it was too much to move higher in charge weight. I bought a new spring and replaced the weights back into the buffer.
Though I don’t quite make the book speed.

I ran back up to the lowest maximum book number, without a single hint of problems.
45 caliber Varmint Rifle Bliss was attained.:)

Curious how significant twist rate is in terms of pressure?
Because I always thought this had more to do with the pressure on the bullet.
A faster spun bullet will have a more dramatic effect on impact than a “more traditionally” twisted bore.

A fast twist will also disintegrate some lightly constructed bullets with too much centrifugal force for the jacket. Or it may “strip” a lead bullet in the bore.

But none of this will have an effect on the maximum chamber pressure. You know, more or less...

Is that what you mean, @Howland937?
 
It does. It just doesn’t increase chamber pressure.
Maximum chamber pressure is achieved long before barrel twist is in play.

A long throat, shallow lead and Gain-Twist 5R rifling is not going to make up for 20 grains of powder.;)


In a 450 Bushmaster AR, the friction down the barrel has a lot to do with how much gas the bolt carrier gets. Bullet bearing surface and twist rate can affect the function of different rifles gas systems based on this increased friction, which robs only slightly velocity, but increases system pressure dramatically.
But this would not increase chamber pressure. Max is max. The throat diameter, length and lead angle would be more influential than the twist for chamber pressure.
In my limited experience. Which is...

I have a 1/14” twist Bushmaster barrel. Because of the increased dwell time in the barrel past the gas port, in reality a minuscule longer amount, a conservative load is incredibly harsh on the rifle.
By the time I removed the burrs from the port (a gauge would insert but not drop through, it would have eroded away anyhow) and lightened the spring and buffer to achieve function, it was too much to move higher in charge weight. I bought a new spring and replaced the weights back into the buffer.
Though I don’t quite make the book speed.

I ran back up to the lowest maximum book number, without a single hint of problems.
45 caliber Varmint Rifle Bliss was attained.:)


Because I always thought this had more to do with the pressure on the bullet.
A faster spun bullet will have a more dramatic effect on impact than a “more traditionally” twisted bore.

A fast twist will also disintegrate some lightly constructed bullets with too much centrifugal force for the jacket. Or it may “strip” a lead bullet in the bore.

But none of this will have an effect on the maximum chamber pressure. You know, more or less...

Is that what you mean, @Howland937?
Yeah, that captured the essence of my curiosities.
Knowing that different firearms, barrels, cases, primers, powder batches, seating depths, etc...can affect pressures, I was mostly wondering if twist rate was a non-factor. Thanks!
 
With the op example, the 1 in 10 vs 1 in 16 with the 5" bbl:

The rate of twist will have a far greater affect on the bullets terminal performance and bullet construction.
 
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