How fast do you push your cast lead?

Palladan44 said:

Another question, what is a good lead hardness for deer hunting? 357 magnum, 158 grain LSWC. Or 44 mag 240gr LSWC
Too soft and too much deformation.
Too hard and FMJ- like performance.(even worse than above)

I do know hardcast is preferred over anything for dangerous game on large animals, because its durability and deep penetration qualities.
Even FMJ ammo with its soft pure lead swaged core deforms way easier than hard cast alloy.
Where would you say "dangerous game" class alloy begins on the brinell scale?

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Harder generally also means more brittle when antimony is used. As far as penetration goes that has never been a shortfall of cast. The new high technology focus on controlling expansion charastics. Lead mushrooms a little and people try to make hollow points for better expansion. A round nose lead bullet will penetrate no problem. Some people use Keith style bullets for bigger entry holes to aid in blood loss. That clean hole it cuts in paper it also cuts in skin.

Palladan44 said:

If thats the case, how does reaming a bore help?

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Correction: Reaming the cylinder throats. In some cases, my Ruger for example, the cylinder throats were tighter than the bore... so as the bullet passed through the end of the cylinder (into the barrel forcing cone) the bullets were being 'sized' down, giving a poor bullet to bore fit. Further, as the gunsmith related later, all of the cylinder throats were mismatched... different sizes. Having the throats all reamed to the same size, and to a size not smaller than the bullet, means there is more consistency for the bullet exiting the cylinder.

Palladan44 said:

Where would you say "dangerous game" class alloy begins on the brinell scale?

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Much more important than hardness, is bullet shape... at least in cast. A wider, flat nose (meplat) will usually perform better in a hunting role than, say, a pointed (round) nose bullet, or a bullet with a smaller meplat as long as penetration isn't the sole concern.

For hunting I want as big a meplat as I can get, no more than 12 bhn, and at least a couple percent tin in the alloy.

I can push my 11-13 BHN bullets to 1600 fps with NRA 50/50 or LLA bullet lube. Beyond that, I use a mold for gas checks and use gas checks with the exact same alloy and NRA 50/50.
FIT is critical. A alloy too hard to "yield" under the pressure is likely to allow gas blow-by and cause heavy leading. Softer alloys do not have that issue. Softer alloys have a problem if the twist rate is too fast (I have seen this in .223 rifles, but not in pistols). This will be shown by leading along the leading edges of the rifling.
Better a lead bullet a little bigger than you think is good than a bullet a little smaller than you think.

Palladan44 said:

I realize many of you cast your own.
I dont, but im thinking about it.

It seems a tighter fit is more advantageous than a looser fit. If thats the case, how does reaming a bore help? This is an interesting science, and im an avid handloader. This is just the next step in the discipline for me. I do know that a properly crafted load, and a properly sized cast bullet combo is arguably the most accurate handgun round there is.
Ive seen the results in my own shooting, and would like to build on it.

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In a revolver, at least, you want the gun to grip the bullet progressively tighter. In other words, you want the gun to taper from back to front. So "perfect" numbers for a .44 would be something like a .430 bullet, a .4295 throat, a .429 leade, and a .4285 muzzle. This can be most easily accomplished with firelapping, although that is a contentious opinion.

Palladan44 said:

Another question, what is a good lead hardness for deer hunting? 357 magnum, 158 grain LSWC. Or 44 mag 240gr LSWC
Too soft and too much deformation.
Too hard and FMJ- like performance.(even worse than above)

I do know hardcast is preferred over anything for dangerous game on large animals, because its durability and deep penetration qualities.
Even FMJ ammo with its soft pure lead swaged core deforms way easier than hard cast alloy.
Where would you say "dangerous game" class alloy begins on the brinell scale?

Click to expand...

Around 16, as far as I am concerned. I worry more about an overly hardened bullet breaking up in a game animal than I do about a too-soft one deforming, so I don't go in for the super hard bullets. I believe 16-18 BHN is good enough for anything short of elephants. I also find such hard bullets aggravating, so always go for checked designs when I intend to use a harder alloy.

One of our members here, for what it is worth, has done extensive testing on very large animals and is convinced that solid copper monolithics are superior to any cast bullets. This is heresy to some of us, but his work is pretty convincing.

It's not my intention to hijack this thread but I do have a question.
I have all of the components to load 1000 10mm rounds with a Lee 175gn LSWC which I have not yet cast. I have a few hundred lbs. of wheel weights and several lbs. of linotype so I could custom blend my bullet hardness but I don't have a brinell hardness tester, nor do I know how to test them.
My intent is to push the bullets to very warm 10mm speeds but I feel I need recommendations from those with more experience than I. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Plating, powder coating, ect.
I would love to cast gas check bullets but for 10mm it is very scarse if not only custom made.

P.S. I did find this.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/133217-bullet-hardness-needed-for-10mm/

Palladan44 said:

I realize many of you cast your own.
I dont, but im thinking about it.

It seems a tighter fit is more advantageous than a looser fit. If thats the case, how does reaming a bore help? This is an interesting science, and im an avid handloader. This is just the next step in the discipline for me. I do know that a properly crafted load, and a properly sized cast bullet combo is arguably the most accurate handgun round there is.
Ive seen the results in my own shooting, and would like to build on it.

Click to expand...

Beat me to it!

I think it was meant reaming the cylinder throats, not the bore.

If they are undersized compared to the bore, when the bullet is fired and travels through the cylinder throat towards the barrel it gets squeezed down to a smaller size than the bore. Gasses blast by as it moves down the barrel and can melt lead off the bullet, poor fit in the grooves create instability, etc.

Enlarging the undersized cylinder throats to a size just slightly larger than the bore (.002 larger as an example) keeps this from happening. The properly sized bullet fills the grooves creating a good fit in the bore as the bullet moves along.

Stay safe.

I guess I can forget about testing my own bullet hardness, it would be way too expensive.

flightsimmer said:

I guess I can forget about testing my own bullet hardness, it would be way too expensive.

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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils

This link goes to a 13-page forum entry at CastBoolits. It details a method by which one may use inexpensive artist pencils to find, if not true BnH, then at least relative hardness.

This method is simple and requires little expenditure of cash. It does need a bit of practice, but isn't difficult. The pencil set can be found at some Walmart, or through Amazon.

One need not read all 13 pages, the method is detailed in the first page.

I did a bunch of searches for lead, plated and jacketed .401" bullets and most are out of stock, I guess there's no surprise there.

I guess I'll have to fire up my lead pot after all.

For the ones I cast which are a combination of wheel weights, range lead, tin solder, and pewter. I don't remember what the hardness of it is but I usually stay around 800 to 900fps for 40/45 Caliber. I have some non gaschecked Keith style 44 mag commercial cast ones that I have pushed to 1400fps. The right lube goes a long way. the Liquid ALOX that lee sells is a mess and it produces slower speeds out of my 40 S&W compared to Purple stick lube. Most people think of lead hardness in regards to speed and leading the barrel but it also has to do with proper mushrooming. At one time there were molds for big game rounds where you could cast noses and bases out of different lead mixes to maximize effectiveness.

I've pushed 240g, BH 18, Hi-Tek coated projectiles to low 1600 fps range in 44 magnum...but I won't be repeating that anytime soon. Those were some seriously hot loads.

I run water dropped WW with Johnsons paste wax plus a bit of Vaseline and Allox.

I can push a non GC to 454 Cassull rifle velocity with no leading and decent accuacy. Gas check I can get close to factory 30-30 velocity. Accuracy has always been the limiting factor, not leading.

I take a lesser than scientific approach with my cast bullets.

I've found most purchased cast bullets and those that I cast myself work fine up to about 1000 fps without leading and good accuracy.

If I want to go faster, I use jacketed or plated.

I've been dabbling with powder coated bullets. But, powder coating is not a time efficient process.

Also, I have been dabbling with plain base cast bullets with plain base aluminum gas checks but the jury is still out on them.

I may be able drive both faster than 1000 fps, but it is not high on the priority list at present.

Fit the bullet to the gun and end leading problems. I have been shooting 148 gr wadcutters in 357 mag, wheel weight at 1,500 fps. I would recommend gas checks above that, but haven't needed them.

cfullgraf said:

I take a lesser than scientific approach with my cast bullets.

I've found most purchased cast bullets and those that I cast myself work fine up to about 1000 fps without leading and good accuracy.

If I want to go faster, I use jacketed or plated.

I've been dabbling with powder coated bullets. But, powder coating is not a time efficient process.

Also, I have been dabbling with plain base cast bullets with plain base aluminum gas checks but the jury is still out on them.

I may be able drive both faster than 1000 fps, but it is not high on the priority list at present.

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Powder coat efficiency is based on process. If you want perfect as possible and stand them all on end it can be time consuming. If your just baking them in a basket and breaking them apart then you can mass produce them quickly. The high tech coating seems much more laborious and usually takes two coats. If one already has all the stuff for traditional lubricants then switching doesn't make sense unless there is a problem. I PC with a setup less than 30 dollars and that's cheaper than one die for a traditional machine.