Novelist Seeking Help With Guns

Here a bit of a rub. You state that the character is comfortable with handguns. Such a person would be very likely to check operation of firearm given them and take the proper steps to make sure it functioning correctly. Any quality semi auto is very reliable if it is in proper condition. If you are smarter than a rock you are not going to go into a potentially harmful situation with a weapon you think may fail.

stringnut said:

Such a person would be very likely to check operation of firearm given them and take the proper steps to make sure it functioning correctly.

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In our modern times, I'd agree a hundred percent.
In the early 60s, gun bunnies might have been more complacent. The average gunsel is just going to carry the thing and presume it works.
Perfectly within reason for a European person, in the early 60s to not fully function check an arm, too.

And, well within dramatic limits to make the exchange one too "public" to do more than pocket the gat.

Union St said:

I might do that in precis (sp) form to see what you guys think, but I'm some ways off writing yet.

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LOL!
Larry Correia excerpted an entire book for us, the once, back before Monster Hunter turned into such a huge franchise.

Union St said:

But the gun needs to malfunction on the second, or more usefully for my purposes, on the first shot.

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Failing to seat the magazine completely will give you a failure-to-feed or a cartridge that does not chamber completely. A rusted or excessively dirty chamber will do the same thing.

Ive fired a Browning 1955 before and it jammed a number of times during the course of fire.
It however was a really pretty gun, and looked liked it belonged in a movie or book.

Union St said:

First of all: WOW! Thank you so much for all the speedy and intelligent answers. Quite overwhelming and I'm obviously in the right place. I should have been more precise in my concept as you all are in your comments. I have just begun research on this book, but I envisage a man 'comfortable' with handguns being handed a weapon for his use. It should be easily concealable for use inside in good light over a range of, say, 10-15 feet. So, the FN1910 would be OK? This part of the story takes place in Belgium. Maybe he would have been offered a choice from two. But the gun needs to malfunction on the second, or more usefully for my purposes, on the first shot. Forgive my incorrect use of terminology; I will get it right in the book. There is no excuse for not using the correct terms when there is so much expert help readily available. In my previous book, there was a chapter on a train and the UKForum guys practically gave me a lesson in how to drive a steam loco. That's a good idea of going to try a handgun one day, because I have never done that. And don't worry, I will not be making any statements on the correctness or otherwise of the character's intentions, or guns in general. And I promise I won't 'cock' the gun. Thank you for all your comments and the excellent pictures - very helpful. If you think of anything with my added details, just let me know.

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Koroner said:

I heard about one guy that didn't realize that his constant application of WD40 to his loaded revolver had penetrated and thus deactivated his primers making the ammo useless.
Story goes he got mugged on the subway but he pulled out his roscoe and tried to kill the mugger but the revolver just clicked.
I don't know if I believe it, but the tale goes that the mugger fainted!

If you want a sidearm to fail then bad or compromised ammo can do it for you.
I bought a case of Chinese 9mm and the primers kept popping out of the fired cases jamming the gun. It was a PITA until I realized that I had special ammo for practicing the clearing of jams. I save them for educational purposes.

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Yep, you can always blame wet/old/corroded/ or oil-contaminated ammunition for a first-round malfunction. This can sideline even the best and most reliable firearms- and could be difficult for even an experienced gun-handler to detect, especially in a hurry or in the dark.

I agree with bad ammo as the most likely cause of a malfunction. Keep in mind that in post-war Europe, you could find nearly anything - the Germans had the pleasant habit of issuing sidearms to all their troops, and issued just about anything handy - being terribly short of sidearms. POWs were relieved of weapons, so it was pretty easy to find something.

The Browning hi power 9mm was the flagship of the Browning lineup in 1962 and for a long time after. Heavily used world-wide and still is. It (or any other auto) could malfunction from things like limp-wristing, or having the slide travel interfered with (such as fighting over the gun with someone and the slide being pulled out of battery, or the opponent's hand on the gun impeding normal operation after the first round in the chamber is fired). Also, if the mag release was inadvertently activated at any point, the gun would not fire at all due to a safety feature built into the gun- if the magazine was dislodged or removed, that round in the chamber would not fire.

He would easily discern if the second round jammed as the slide would likely not go fully forward into battery.

I like doing this...I was acknowledged for firearms help in Ken Follet’s book Jackdaws.

Union St said:

Well, thank you all so much. The comments are brilliant. Let me think how to handle this. Silly question, when the experienced man is given a gun (not his), can he check the operation by pulling the slide back to charge the weapon? This would show that a bullet loads, right? I don't think he could fire it anywhere (but perhaps away from anything he could fire it into the air, say). The act of firing would show that the gun worked (but not any accuracy), and the next round would load automatically. Would he know if that second round had jammed because of, say, oil or rust?

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Assuming a few moments of time (vs in the middle of a fight) there is such a process as a "function check." An experienced person would certainly do this, as it is always performed on their own guns after cleaning, etc to assure they are properly assembled. Gun would be unloaded, slide retracted and checked to see if it locks back on empty magazine, mag removed to check dropping slide, then pull the trigger, hold it back and run the slide again to check that trigger reset (you have to release the trigger to reset the system for the next shot) works properly also.

Clearly that isn't perfect (you can't check ammo without using it, etc), and it doesn't check for feed so, but it's pretty good. If there's a reason that the ammo is poor that could cause any number of failures. Another good failure mode is springs, especially magazine springs. If it's old, then maybe that's worn out and while the gun seems fine after function check, he's had a chance to lube it during this inspection as well, it is unreliable in actual operation and that can't be found without firing. It's predictable, but as you can expect it is non-trivial to acquire and replace springs in a specific gun. A loaner because spy/criminal/whatever? Not gonna happen.

Anyway, when you go back to load the gun to make it ready for action, it is very clear if it loaded properly. Any failure to feed will result in the gun not being "in battery." The slide is not all the way forward. Sometimes that will happen because you don't fully release the slide or otherwise it just does and people esp in the 60s might just tap the back of the slide to push it forward, and perhaps this hint that the gun is actually unreliable would be a useful tip to the informed and something our shooter can (assuming he survives) kick himself over later on.

Bullets shot up come down. At least in the west, even then, a professional firearms expert would be unlikely to shoot up in the air for most any reason.

Union St said:

can he check the operation by pulling the slide back to charge the weapon?

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Depends on the circumstances (which you will be in control of). A back alley meet, arm is passed over, shooter racks the slide, but does nothing else for [insert reason here]. Like the need to decamp the alley due to being pursued, seen by bad people or LE, or to meet some other dramatic deadline. Shooter would know one was "in the pipe" and little else.

If the slide goes forward, but incompletely (as in a millimeter or so short), pulling the trigger will have no effect.

And, that's something that can really trigger the tachypsychia and tunneled-down foveal vision. Really highly-trained person (exceptionally so in '62) would run a tap-rack-bang drill; adequately trained would rack the slide to get a new round in place.

All of which would be under an onus of high adrenaline reactions.
Sounds are dulled, the color drains out of the vision except directly ahead in the 35º cone of foveal vision, everything moves in slow motion; you actually feel like you are fighting to get reflex actions to happen. Suddenly air is two or three times denser than water. Also, feed back from extremities is dulled, too; the harder you grip the firearm the less it feels like you have hold of it. Things around you are blurred and indistinct. A person next to you shooting will be a surprise, a white flash in peripheral vision, the sound of the gunshot no louder than pasta snapping. These sorts of things are very unique, and come back in dreams, in the cruel twistings only dreams can have.

This is why training so encouraged, the muscle memory has to be there. The ability to get a reflexive sight picture. All of it.

Oh, and after that level of adrenaline overdose, there's a point where your body forces you to stop, to collapse a bit. Entirely common to vomit from the exertion. Lungs will be heaving, trying to re-oxygenate. All sorts of things will hurt. Which is where training kicks back in. Of focusing on getting the next thing done and not on the pain.

CapnMac said:

LOL!
Larry Correia excerpted an entire book for us, the once, back before Monster Hunter turned into such a huge franchise.

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I remember those days fondly. Probably doesn't hurt that I've read almost everything he's published, which is quite a lot.

Kevin Rohrer said:

Failing to seat the magazine completely will give you a failure-to-feed or a cartridge that does not chamber completely. A rusted or excessively dirty chamber will do the same thing.

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I was also thinking a simple bad primer could do the trick.

Union St said:

Well, you make a good point. I did that with the train chapter I mentioned and a few were good enough to read it and comment. I might do that in precis (sp) form to see what you guys think, but I'm some ways off writing yet. And I don't want to drill too deep into the details for the reader. It's a challenge to be authentic without becoming boring (for non-gun enthusiasts). Thank you.

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I wonder if you have read any Stephen hunter books. He writes very accurate gun-centric fiction, and I imagine most readers here at THR are big fans. I don't think I've ever heard a review from a non gun person, and I am curious if such folks would find Hunter's books technical and dull.

I love my 1910s, they never jam. If they did, being comfortable with guns, the normal “tap, rack” doesn’t work well. Mag release on bottom European style and the slide does not lock back easily. Small ejection port is harder to clear a loose round out of. So.... yeah that is probably the right gun. I still love mine. They are beautiful to everyone except Arch Duke Ferdinand and his wife.

As an avid reader I’d be interested in reading it once published. Especially if it’s in e-book format available on Kindle.

If I was handed a gun, First I would point it in a safe direction, finger off the trigger. Press the mag release Drop the magazine into my hand and check for rounds, is it fully loaded. Next partially retract slide to see if there is a round in the chamber. No round? Replace magazine, chamber round, put on safety. Round in chamber apply safety replace magazine making sure its locked in.

Pocket. Or holster the gun, if I'm a pro I want a holster, faster draw that way.

Union St said:

Again, thank you so much everyone. I have so much to learn, but then, that's one of the benefits of writing. Some of the technicalities are a little daunting, so without being able to meet any real people, I am going to search YouTube for some "hands-on" demonstrations. I think that will help me. CapnMac, you have shown to me what I hoped (in some manner), that this is just as much an emotional exercise, as technical. Thank you again.

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Why are you unable to meet real people?

If the gun is supposed to fail on the first or second shot, might I suggest he has a Spanish "Ruby" in .32 ACP.

This is actually a whole class of cheap .32s made in Spain for the French military during WW1, the basic design was standardized, but there were several manufacturers and quality varies from "not-so-bad" to "that-looks-awful". After the war these Spanish companies contiuned to make this little guns for the affordable market across the globe.

Disregard the firing pin nonsense, but not a bad description of the process, circa 1960s -

“Bond walked over to the bed, snapped out the magazine, and pumped the single round in the chamber out on the bedspread. He worked the action several times and sensed the tension on the trigger-spring as he squeezed and fired the empty gun. He pulled back the breech and verified that there was no dust round the pin which he had spent so many hours filing to a point, and he ran his hand down the blue barrel from the tip of which he had personally sawn the blunt foresight. Then he snapped the spare round back into the magazine, and the magazine into the taped butt of the thin gun, pumped the action for a last time, put up the safe and slipped the gun back under his coat.”

Excerpt From
Diamonds Are Forever
Ian Fleming
https://books.apple.com/us/book/diamonds-are-forever/id1527056659
This material may be protected by copyright.

Union St said:

First of all: WOW! Thank you so much for all the speedy and intelligent answers. Quite overwhelming and I'm obviously in the right place. I should have been more precise in my concept as you all are in your comments. I have just begun research on this book, but I envisage a man 'comfortable' with handguns being handed a weapon for his use. It should be easily concealable for use inside in good light over a range of, say, 10-15 feet. So, the FN1910 would be OK? This part of the story takes place in Belgium. Maybe he would have been offered a choice from two. But the gun needs to malfunction on the second, or more usefully for my purposes, on the first shot. Forgive my incorrect use of terminology; I will get it right in the book. There is no excuse for not using the correct terms when there is so much expert help readily available. In my previous book, there was a chapter on a train and the UKForum guys practically gave me a lesson in how to drive a steam loco. That's a good idea of going to try a handgun one day, because I have never done that. And don't worry, I will not be making any statements on the correctness or otherwise of the character's intentions, or guns in general. And I promise I won't 'cock' the gun. Thank you for all your comments and the excellent pictures - very helpful. If you think of anything with my added details, just let me know.

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If you are anywhere near ANYONE on these forums,you really should go out & shoot ANY pistol !.

But if your suggesting your 'hero'?, is familiar with guns ------- no way is he about to take an untested and unfired gun to a place where a malfunction will possibly cause his demise.

So if it does not destroy your OpSec [ operational security ] please do tell where you might like to meet & greet a member.

I am in Western NYS,for example.

and retired LEO [ law enforcement officer ] in case your not familiar with all the acronyms we use.

As a novelist myself, I'm glad to see someone taking the time to get it right! It may be a "little thing" to some writers, but those little things add up and not getting them right detracts from the authenticity (and makes gun guys cry. You don't want to see a gun guy cry). Good luck with your project!

lysanderxiii said:

If the gun is supposed to fail on the first or second shot, might I suggest he has a Spanish "Ruby" in .32 ACP.

This is actually a whole class of cheap .32s made in Spain for the French military during WW1, the basic design was standardized, but there were several manufacturers and quality varies from "not-so-bad" to "that-looks-awful". After the war these Spanish companies contiuned to make this little guns for the affordable market across the globe.

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I have a bit of a writeup of that in the context of Star copies: http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/izarra/index.shtml

TL;DR French issue guns were fine, rejected by French ones were bad to awful, and the unscrupulous makers just dumped those on the civilian market. Also, esp in Europe in this time, known to a reasonably knowlegable gun guy, so hard to sneak in as /surprisingly/ unreliable.

Files the firing pin to a point??? Come-on Bond is an idiot! NObody files the firing pin to a point!